Interesting...when you google 'hydraulic' 'fluids' 'viscosity' 'modifiers', you get thousands of references so I find it hard to believe that VIIs are never used in any of those applications.
Amsoil Eao before and after Particle counts
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Interesting...when you google 'hydraulic' 'fluids' 'viscosity' 'modifiers', you get thousands of references so I find it hard to believe that VIIs are never used in any of those applications.
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Well, I'll be hornswaggled (or horns waggled)
You're right. I just figured that they didn't bother with VII in hydraulic fluids.
Interesting Lubrizol
Havoline Automatic Transmission Fluid ATF+3 is designed to maintain its viscosity through excellent oxidation stability and use of long lasting viscosity modifiers. And it has improved low temperature fluidity and viscosity breakdown performance over previous generation Chrysler ATF fluids.
Fascinating
Interesting Lubrizol
Havoline Automatic Transmission Fluid ATF+3 is designed to maintain its viscosity through excellent oxidation stability and use of long lasting viscosity modifiers. And it has improved low temperature fluidity and viscosity breakdown performance over previous generation Chrysler ATF fluids.
Fascinating
Yep...and they even make both monograde and multigrade hydraulic fluids.
Some further reasearch revealed that the filter clogging problem may not be related to VII but to water and ZDDP stability.
Typical formulations for a zinc-containing product contain up to 1% of the cost-effective EP and anti-corrosion agent, zinc dialkyldithiophosphate (ZDDP). However, it has been established that even when the more hydrolytically-stable secondary alkyldithiophosphate is used, the incorporation of ZDDP in hydraulic oils can lead to filterability problems due to the formation of oil-insoluble products if any water is present. If the filtration requirement is for retention of particles exceeding 5 microns then a non-zinc hydraulic oil must be used. Non-zinc formulations for improved filterability would contain similar levels of a sulphur/phosphorus additive either in combination, such as triphenylthiophosphate, or as separate additives such as tributylphosphate with a sulphurised fat. There is now an increasing interest in the fine filterability of hydraulic oils. This is particularly important for numerically-controlled machine tools where the close tolerances required for a fine surface finish are only attainable when the machine tools index accurately for each metal cutting operation undertaken. In Germany, HLP and HLPD-type oils correspond to this group – HLPD type fluids contain additional detergent/dispersant additives. Fluids in Germany are now predominantly zinc free.
Some further reasearch revealed that the filter clogging problem may not be related to VII but to water and ZDDP stability.
Typical formulations for a zinc-containing product contain up to 1% of the cost-effective EP and anti-corrosion agent, zinc dialkyldithiophosphate (ZDDP). However, it has been established that even when the more hydrolytically-stable secondary alkyldithiophosphate is used, the incorporation of ZDDP in hydraulic oils can lead to filterability problems due to the formation of oil-insoluble products if any water is present. If the filtration requirement is for retention of particles exceeding 5 microns then a non-zinc hydraulic oil must be used. Non-zinc formulations for improved filterability would contain similar levels of a sulphur/phosphorus additive either in combination, such as triphenylthiophosphate, or as separate additives such as tributylphosphate with a sulphurised fat. There is now an increasing interest in the fine filterability of hydraulic oils. This is particularly important for numerically-controlled machine tools where the close tolerances required for a fine surface finish are only attainable when the machine tools index accurately for each metal cutting operation undertaken. In Germany, HLP and HLPD-type oils correspond to this group – HLPD type fluids contain additional detergent/dispersant additives. Fluids in Germany are now predominantly zinc free.
Yes, multiviscosity hytdraulic oils have existed for years (earliest ones developed for the Nautilus submarine for its steering hydraulics: first trip under the poles they had some very nervous moments as steering became inoperative! Mobil DTE M series was developed under an emergency research program) However, these fluids are not used en mass in industry and are a mere blip of the gazillion gallons of regular ISO 32, 46 and 68 hydraulic oils. Same with gear oils..
And yes, multi viscosity tractor hydraulic fluids is another area I experienced "out of grade" viscosity. These are mineral based hydraulic fluids which have pour points in the -40F region.
But as for zinc and other normal additives, they are totally solubalized and filtration to 1 micron beta 1000 is no issue whatever. I have been working with highly additized hydraulic fluids, achieving 15/13/10 targets and better with no filtration issues.
Which is why I went into the engine oil and multi vis transmission fluids totally unaware of potential problems with those fluids..
George Morrison, STLE CLS
And yes, multi viscosity tractor hydraulic fluids is another area I experienced "out of grade" viscosity. These are mineral based hydraulic fluids which have pour points in the -40F region.
But as for zinc and other normal additives, they are totally solubalized and filtration to 1 micron beta 1000 is no issue whatever. I have been working with highly additized hydraulic fluids, achieving 15/13/10 targets and better with no filtration issues.
Which is why I went into the engine oil and multi vis transmission fluids totally unaware of potential problems with those fluids..
George Morrison, STLE CLS
Huh? You just stated above:
Now they do exist and you know all about them?
As far as VII being stripped, I have yet to find any credible research mentioning any such phenomenon. I even called a company that specializes in micronic filtering of hydraulic fluids. They never heard of it either.
However I can find credible research on particular forms of ZDDP and moisture clogging micronic filters. Contacting additive companies, I learned that the ZDDP additives used in hydraulic fluids are a special grade not normally found in engine oil. Their explanation jives with that reference above for Zinc free oils.
Currently George, you haven't provided one bit of credible evidence to support your claim.
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George - have any of your customers shared their before and after UOA data to show this event? That is, the UOA before your systems were installed and the UOA detected the visc loss??
If so, please share it.
If so, please share it.
427, you certainly have an "attitude"..
What I am sharing is 35 years of real world experience; I am not trying to write a paper or book. You can take what I share or leave it, but do you have to write in such nasty, threatened way??
My job is as a lube engineer, providing technical support and services for industrial, off-highway and manufacturing facilities. I work 10 hours a day, every day, in lubricants and nothing else.. I am not trying to sell products, just share information that may not be readily apparent or know as general knowledge and is my committment as an STLE CLS.
I did not mention filtering multi-vis oils as they are simply not used in large industrial facilities that have robots and other such hydraulic systems requiring filtration to 1 micron.
As I shared, yes, the Nautilus submarine used a multi-vis hydraulic oil, as do many current maritime applilcations but are not filtering to 1 micron as it serves no function..
Manufacturing facilities (tne #1 hydraulic oil & gearbox users)generally have heated and cooled facilities, thus no need for low pour hydraulic characteristics..
I try and share information as pleasurable and in a positive way.. This grief is just not worth it gentlemen.....
George Morrison, STLE CLS
What I am sharing is 35 years of real world experience; I am not trying to write a paper or book. You can take what I share or leave it, but do you have to write in such nasty, threatened way??
My job is as a lube engineer, providing technical support and services for industrial, off-highway and manufacturing facilities. I work 10 hours a day, every day, in lubricants and nothing else.. I am not trying to sell products, just share information that may not be readily apparent or know as general knowledge and is my committment as an STLE CLS.
I did not mention filtering multi-vis oils as they are simply not used in large industrial facilities that have robots and other such hydraulic systems requiring filtration to 1 micron.
As I shared, yes, the Nautilus submarine used a multi-vis hydraulic oil, as do many current maritime applilcations but are not filtering to 1 micron as it serves no function..
Manufacturing facilities (tne #1 hydraulic oil & gearbox users)generally have heated and cooled facilities, thus no need for low pour hydraulic characteristics..
I try and share information as pleasurable and in a positive way.. This grief is just not worth it gentlemen.....
George Morrison, STLE CLS
With regard to water. In a high class, high pressure hydraulic system, water level is monitored and maintained at minimal levels ( George Morrison, STLE CLS
I now remember why I have not enjoyed contributing to this site in recent times..... Instead of a positive information exchange, threads shift into unfriendly, nasty attitude, attacks..
George
George
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George, please ..relax. No one's getting too excited here. You've just sent a few seismic meters into twitching a bit. You're a Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court. Gulliver, after he returned from his travels.
Please attempt to view this just as you did or would ..if anyone walked in a said this to you before you saw it for yourself. You, yourself, constructed whole lubrication filtration systems under a school of thought developed over your 30 years of being in the business. Now ..in the 30th year ..you came to a revelation. Something .., I venture to say, that you would have a very hard time just taking at face value from anyone you heard it from. After all, you have 29.X years of experience that tells you otherwise ..and NOW someone is telling you that your schools of thoughts are flawed
That is, if I came up to you as you were putting that filtration system together ..and told you it was not only a total waste of time ..but would hurt your customers ..would you have abandoned it on the spot? Accepted what I said to you as gospel?? Not with 30 years experience leading you up to that moment of triumph just a few wrench turnings away you wouldn't. So, please, grant that to others what you would grant to yourself if you were in their shoes.
I'd say that's worth a bit of examination under a microscope ..if not outright skepticism, wouldn't you say??
So ..again ..don't get frustrated with some of the "what?? Are you serious??" type responses to this, imo, monumental departure from most conventions of thought.
Please continue to bring forth whatever you have to offer.
When Schultz gets on board and we lock down a consensus of apparent data ...YOU TOO get to say "Hey, you don't have to take my word on it ..look what these clowns came up with when they tried it
That should be worth something to you too ..or so I would reason.
Stop whining like a baby, George. How did you get this far in life without suffering a little skepticism? I've been an engineer for 25+ years and I still have to defend my conclusions to colleagues and supervisors on a regular bases. That's how science/engineering works. Someone makes an assertion and before it's accepted by all, the results have to be backed up by credible evidence and the results have to be repeated by many.
Funny how you have no problems questioning the credibility of Tom, another professional in the industry. Instead, you want us to ignore his results while you hold everyone hostage for months waiting for your results, like you are the only purveyor of knowledge and truth.
427, regarding my "holding everyone hostage for months waiting for your results, like you are the only purveyor of knowledge and truth". Wow, you DO have problems!
Hey, anyone could bottle up a sample of Mobil, 1 pay their money and had a GC completed.. I volunteer and, again, catch grief because the only lab I could get to RUN the GC is slower than a snail. I have nothing to post and I get grief for not posting, I post that I have no results and get grief for THAT also! And of course, according to you, have no reason to "whine" (nice term). Just take abuse and smile George...
I did not at any time diminish Tom's work; my comments were that all information I had indicated Mobil 1 is Group IV based. Thus my offer to do a GC.. As I indicated I contacted several labs I normally work with and each case their GC's were inop, thus I had only one resource.
Again, all the complaining yet no one else has stepped up to the plate, including you, 427. What is YOUR problem? Why don't YOU have a GC run on Mobil 1, spend a little of your hard earned money as I am doing?? Then no one would be held hostage...
Hey, anyone could bottle up a sample of Mobil, 1 pay their money and had a GC completed.. I volunteer and, again, catch grief because the only lab I could get to RUN the GC is slower than a snail. I have nothing to post and I get grief for not posting, I post that I have no results and get grief for THAT also! And of course, according to you, have no reason to "whine" (nice term). Just take abuse and smile George...
I did not at any time diminish Tom's work; my comments were that all information I had indicated Mobil 1 is Group IV based. Thus my offer to do a GC.. As I indicated I contacted several labs I normally work with and each case their GC's were inop, thus I had only one resource.
Again, all the complaining yet no one else has stepped up to the plate, including you, 427. What is YOUR problem? Why don't YOU have a GC run on Mobil 1, spend a little of your hard earned money as I am doing?? Then no one would be held hostage...
This thread is really sad. 427 has been more than rude. At first he was rude but in his last post he has twisted the facts to make another attack. If I were you, George, I'd ask a moderator to lock this thread before it gets even more out of hand.
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No one needs this thread locked. There's good stuff going on here, JAG. No need to get all flustered and whatnot.
George ..enhance your calm. Like I said, you're bringing some radical news here to the forum. No one needs to be bent out of shape here. This is an internet message board and none of us really knows how the other person is leaning in tone here.
There are lots of people here that bring stuff to the collective table for everyone to feed from ...some do it quieter then others. Me? I couldn't hide in the woods if I was a tree. It just doesn't work for me.
Trust me when I say that 427Z06 has coauthored much of my work ..without credit ... and has given material and financial support to other member projects of substantial value to the forum. Granted, he's not warm and fuzzy in terms of peer review when something like this is concerned ..but I've really got to say that I understand the motivation. The delivery tends to vary with the leap of faith the claim requires to accept the assertion. You guys have no idea how many times I've been spanked ..and, ultimately, with the best intentions. It's like remedial courses for the "isolation and factoring to determine facts" challenged
I just put a smile on my face and go about answering the challenge if I can
We're all big boys here
Compare these two statements:
I put this really fine filtration system on an engine and the owners reported loss of viscosity. I'm unsure of the mechanism, but I think VII is being filtered out. The causal relationship is only apparent at this point ..but I can, at this time, find no other reason for this to occur.
vs.
Filtration below 6um strips out VII.
So, please, everyone relax. This is GOOD STUFF!! GREAT STUFF!! Schultz, in time, is willing to use some REALLY NEAT gizmo with REAL MOJO to help us lock this down. EVERYONE GAINS HERE.
Let's not end the party due to a minor personality conflict.
George ..enhance your calm. Like I said, you're bringing some radical news here to the forum. No one needs to be bent out of shape here. This is an internet message board and none of us really knows how the other person is leaning in tone here.
There are lots of people here that bring stuff to the collective table for everyone to feed from ...some do it quieter then others. Me? I couldn't hide in the woods if I was a tree. It just doesn't work for me.
I just put a smile on my face and go about answering the challenge if I can
Compare these two statements:
I put this really fine filtration system on an engine and the owners reported loss of viscosity. I'm unsure of the mechanism, but I think VII is being filtered out. The causal relationship is only apparent at this point ..but I can, at this time, find no other reason for this to occur.
vs.
Filtration below 6um strips out VII.
So, please, everyone relax. This is GOOD STUFF!! GREAT STUFF!! Schultz, in time, is willing to use some REALLY NEAT gizmo with REAL MOJO to help us lock this down. EVERYONE GAINS HERE.
Let's not end the party due to a minor personality conflict.
The only one I see with problems is YOU. Just because someone doesn't accept your assertions as fact without any credible evidence to back it up, they're being rude in your book.
Ahhh...poor George.
Tom's work says one thing, your sources say another. So what did you decide to do? Verify it for yourself. That's all we're asking for here.
And FWIW, I actually put quite of bit of effort trying to support your conjecture, but I couldn't find any credible evidence to back it up.
Quote:
Again, all the complaining yet no one else has stepped up to the plate, including you, 427. What is YOUR problem? Why don't YOU have a GC run on Mobil 1, spend a little of your hard earned money as I am doing?? Then no one would be held hostage...
Because as far as M1 is concerned, it's a done deal for me. My contacts within industry have been claiming what Tom finally confirmed for quite some time. If you still want to hold out hope to people and waste your money on further testing, have at it.
I like this topic so that's why I've been reading it. I just don't want to see it ruined with name calling ("baby"). There may be hope yet after the last two posts above. Don't get me wrong 427, you make this BITOG forums a much better place, so don't take my speaking up as an attack.
I do have some questions/suggestions. In another thread a week or so ago, someone posted a picture of a "filter bag" (looked like a big condom!) that filters to 5 microns. Couldn't 10W-40 be poured through it to find out if it filters out any VI improvers? Or how about rigging up a way to pump said oil through a bypass filter? Or post some UOAs of people who used a bypass filter with an oil heavily ladened with VI improvers?
I did quite a bit of searching on sizes of VI improvers and only found molecular weights, not sizes, so I'm at a loss.
I do have some questions/suggestions. In another thread a week or so ago, someone posted a picture of a "filter bag" (looked like a big condom!) that filters to 5 microns. Couldn't 10W-40 be poured through it to find out if it filters out any VI improvers? Or how about rigging up a way to pump said oil through a bypass filter? Or post some UOAs of people who used a bypass filter with an oil heavily ladened with VI improvers?
I did quite a bit of searching on sizes of VI improvers and only found molecular weights, not sizes, so I'm at a loss.
Whatever happened to "respectfully disagreeing"?
I am not familiar with a 5 micron "filter bag". To get to 5 micron beta 200, one has to have a pretty serious, sophisticated microglass element, with depth.. Gosh, I cannot imagine being able to one step filter to anything close to 5 microns with a bag sort of filter.
I am familiar with filter bags; we use them in the metalworking industry for gross filtering of chunks and clunks on CNC machines. But I have not used them, nor familiar with a bag filter with that level of filtration capability..
Again, there is such disparity in the filter manufacturing industry with regard to performance claims, but... Not to say it does not exist, just not in my work.
George Morrison, STLE CLS
I am familiar with filter bags; we use them in the metalworking industry for gross filtering of chunks and clunks on CNC machines. But I have not used them, nor familiar with a bag filter with that level of filtration capability..
Again, there is such disparity in the filter manufacturing industry with regard to performance claims, but... Not to say it does not exist, just not in my work.
George Morrison, STLE CLS
I found it. 427 is the one who posted it in another thread. Here's the website. Not sure what micron rating(s) it has but you can take a look and perhaps understand it better than I can. http://www.fsifilters.com/products.php?prod_id=5#specs
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We used those bags at my last real job. I grabbed a few (I could have had a 55 gal plastic drum full ..as well as half the plant for that matter if I had room) I have a few left ..and I think I still have one 1um bag left. The problem is that mere dust contamination on the exterior of the bag will be (probably) 1um or bigger. We're not working with clean room spec air here. The 1um filter socks are a much thicker quilted/mat material then the higher micron filter bags which may be how they get the performance level in one pass
I also have 1um cotton wound filters in a DOE 20"X3.5". Those are cleaner since they've been in sealed bags since date of manufacture ..but right now I'm into another project and mounting it on my minivan guinea pig is not an option until I'm done (start, actually) with my 0w-10 experimental oil that bruce gave me. I'll be probably another 5k before I will be switching back to a dino with any substantial VII in it. That may change if I actually like the results. I'm not going to ditch perfectly good Group III oil when it works.
I think the best course of action is to keep the jury out (not stop the discussion) until Schultz can break free and do this under lab-like conditions in a lab-like environment designed for such activities.
Of course, if you can get 3 or 4 others to pony up to split the $105 bill that Blackstone wants to do this ...then we can save Schultz the hassle ..(although he's got access to some very fine stuff and he could really determine all kinds of thresholds for just where stuff can't get through).
I also have 1um cotton wound filters in a DOE 20"X3.5". Those are cleaner since they've been in sealed bags since date of manufacture ..but right now I'm into another project and mounting it on my minivan guinea pig is not an option until I'm done (start, actually) with my 0w-10 experimental oil that bruce gave me. I'll be probably another 5k before I will be switching back to a dino with any substantial VII in it. That may change if I actually like the results. I'm not going to ditch perfectly good Group III oil when it works.
I think the best course of action is to keep the jury out (not stop the discussion) until Schultz can break free and do this under lab-like conditions in a lab-like environment designed for such activities.
Of course, if you can get 3 or 4 others to pony up to split the $105 bill that Blackstone wants to do this ...then we can save Schultz the hassle ..(although he's got access to some very fine stuff and he could really determine all kinds of thresholds for just where stuff can't get through).
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