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Re: Thin 0w20? [Re: Gokhan] #5376815 03/15/20 09:53 AM
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NH73 Offline
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Any where else, I often read that high VI's and VII's was always a bad thing. Now all of a sudden, it is good for TGMO. Which one is it?


2017 Toyota RAV4 Hybrid
2004 Ford Explorer Sport Trac
2012 Gravely ZT XL 48 w/ Kawasaki FR730
Re: Thin 0w20? [Re: wolf_06] #5376852 03/15/20 10:32 AM
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tig1 Offline
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M1 has a 0-16 in the AFE line.


2007 Ford Fusion 258,000 miles
M1 5-20HM
2017 Ford Fusion 91K
M1 0-20EP
10,000 mile OCIs on both engines
M1 ATF and M1 LV HP ATF
M1 10-30 in all OPE
MC filters

Re: Thin 0w20? [Re: ARCOgraphite] #5376872 03/15/20 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by ARCOgraphite
Subaru 0w20 ( Idemitsu) has a low KV100. But its noisy when hot in the engine. Real noisy.


Yours is the older 2.0 motor though, before Subaru introduced the direct injection 2.0 engine with more than 80% new parts compared to the older generation. The new FB20D are quieter. The newer models have more sound insulation too.

It was not clear which of your two cars was consuming oil, the Crosstrek or the VW. From the context I get the impression it is the Volks.

Re: Thin 0w20? [Re: 52pu] #5376877 03/15/20 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by 52pu
Amsoil will be coming out with a 0w16 soon.


Already out in OE, but not in SS


2004 Prius; 131K; ATM
2007 Yaris 108K ATM
2006 B2300;137K;ALM
Re: Thin 0w20? [Re: wolf_06] #5376943 03/15/20 11:51 AM
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I don't understand the fascination to keep going thinner and thinner. Using 0W20-10W30 I haven't noticed any real world fuel economy. Are car manufactures just trying to push the envelope? Imo,you don't want too thin nor too thick. You want the perfect equilibrium between performance and protection.


1996 Nissan 300ZX 5-speed,Arctic Pearl(#175 of 300)
Quaker State Ultimate Durability 10W30
2012 Honda Accord Coupe EX-L 2.4,auto,San Marino Red
Pennzoil Platinum High Mileage 10W30

Re: Thin 0w20? [Re: NH73] #5377113 03/15/20 04:04 PM
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Gokhan Online Content
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Originally Posted by NH73
Any where else, I often read that high VI's and VII's was always a bad thing. Now all of a sudden, it is good for TGMO. Which one is it?

High VII content promotes more turbocharger and engine deposits and sludge because VII is plastic and possibly increases the wear because the oil runs thinner. However, it raises the fuel economy. Therefore, like anything else it's a compromise. Japanese OEMs favored ultra-high-VI oils because of their fuel economy. Now, with the TGI, GDI, and TGDI engines becoming more popular, ultra-high-VI oils are becoming less desirable.

All this said I never had a bad UOA with TGMO in my Corolla, and I haven't seen anyone who had a bad UOA with TGMO. Is it the best oil for wear protection and engine cleaning? No. However, it still works, like any oil.


2020 Toyota Prius Prime XLE plug-in hybrid, 2ZR-FXE engine, ~ 65 mpg on regular gasoline, ~ 5,000 mi
TGMO 0W-16 SN/RC Japan
OEM spin-on oil filter Japan
Re: Thin 0w20? [Re: Triple_Se7en] #5377120 03/15/20 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Triple_Se7en
Somebody here at BITOG (maybe Gokhan) showed a chart a week ago that broke-down all kinds of measurement numbers in different viscosities - with different oils. I thought I saved the link, but can't seem to find it. That chart showed the viscosity numbers for numerous oils in different weights.

Hopefully whoever provided that chart will read this thread.

The latest, updated spreadsheet:

Estimated base-oil viscosity (BO DV150) and VII content of selected oils

If you want a thick oil, you want both a high HTHS and a high BO DV150, as the lower end of the engine experiences the HTHS and the upper end (valvetrain and upper rings) experiences BO DV150.

For most considerations you can virtually ignore KV100, but it comes into play with engine leaks and valve-stem oil seals. Also, high VI of the finished oil helps with fuel economy but may increase wear. As I said earlier, if you want a thick oil -- as in a high dynamic viscosity in all shear rates -- you want the lowest KV100 for a given HTHS.

The theory behind the calculations:

High-shear and full-shear viscosities


2020 Toyota Prius Prime XLE plug-in hybrid, 2ZR-FXE engine, ~ 65 mpg on regular gasoline, ~ 5,000 mi
TGMO 0W-16 SN/RC Japan
OEM spin-on oil filter Japan
Re: Thin 0w20? [Re: Gokhan] #5377138 03/15/20 04:36 PM
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It's not inside those 2 links you provided. Neither link has csts for all the brands and all the viscosities. The OP wants to find out who makes the thinnest 0w20 oils.

Maybe it was a pdf and not an actual link. Oh well, no biggie. Don't waste more time on it. Thanks for your help.


2019 Hyundai Santa Fe 2.4 GDI - Pennzoil Ultra Platinum 5w30 / OEM 35504 Filter
2020 Kia Soul X-Line 2.0 MPI - a 50-50 blend of Pennzoil Platinum HM & Pennzoil Gold 5w30 // AC Delco PF1127 Ecore




Re: Thin 0w20? [Re: Triple_Se7en] #5377146 03/15/20 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Triple_Se7en
Neither link has csts for all the brands and all the viscosities.

cSt values (KV40 and KV100) are in the spreadsheet (first link).


2020 Toyota Prius Prime XLE plug-in hybrid, 2ZR-FXE engine, ~ 65 mpg on regular gasoline, ~ 5,000 mi
TGMO 0W-16 SN/RC Japan
OEM spin-on oil filter Japan
Re: Thin 0w20? [Re: Gokhan] #5377298 03/15/20 07:40 PM
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Got it........ thanks for providing them for the OP.


2019 Hyundai Santa Fe 2.4 GDI - Pennzoil Ultra Platinum 5w30 / OEM 35504 Filter
2020 Kia Soul X-Line 2.0 MPI - a 50-50 blend of Pennzoil Platinum HM & Pennzoil Gold 5w30 // AC Delco PF1127 Ecore




Re: Thin 0w20? [Re: Gokhan] #5377554 03/16/20 05:13 AM
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NH73 Offline
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Originally Posted by Gokhan
Originally Posted by NH73
Any where else, I often read that high VI's and VII's was always a bad thing. Now all of a sudden, it is good for TGMO. Which one is it?

High VII content promotes more turbocharger and engine deposits and sludge because VII is plastic and possibly increases the wear because the oil runs thinner. However, it raises the fuel economy. Therefore, like anything else it's a compromise. Japanese OEMs favored ultra-high-VI oils because of their fuel economy. Now, with the TGI, GDI, and TGDI engines becoming more popular, ultra-high-VI oils are becoming less desirable.

All this said I never had a bad UOA with TGMO in my Corolla, and I haven't seen anyone who had a bad UOA with TGMO. Is it the best oil for wear protection and engine cleaning? No. However, it still works, like any oil.
So how much more fuel economy does it make that is better than other 0w20? Do you run the Toyota's OEM recommendation of 10,000 miles?


2017 Toyota RAV4 Hybrid
2004 Ford Explorer Sport Trac
2012 Gravely ZT XL 48 w/ Kawasaki FR730
Re: Thin 0w20? [Re: NH73] #5377576 03/16/20 06:09 AM
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Originally Posted by NH73
So how much more fuel economy does it make that is better than other 0w20? Do you run the Toyota's OEM recommendation of 10,000 miles?

You insist on saying things I didn't say as if I said them. I didn't say TGMO is better than other 0W-20 oils. I said higher VI results in better fuel economy for a given HTHS value -- end of story. It's probably around a 0.5% gain, and it's up to you choose this oil or not. My last 0W-20 run was M1 EP 0W-20, not the TGMO.

I don't run 0W-20 anymore. I run 0W-16. I follow whatever the OCI Toyota recommends and put in whatever they put at the factory and the dealer, as I have a free two-year maintenance on my new car. I need to have a power line installed in my garage so that the most driving becomes EV and I don't have to worry about the internal-combustion engine and the oil.


2020 Toyota Prius Prime XLE plug-in hybrid, 2ZR-FXE engine, ~ 65 mpg on regular gasoline, ~ 5,000 mi
TGMO 0W-16 SN/RC Japan
OEM spin-on oil filter Japan
Re: Thin 0w20? [Re: wolf_06] #5377709 03/16/20 09:49 AM
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0W-8 wow. That's like water. Now, I wouldn't be shocked if 0W-4 will release down the road. For some reason, that seems crazy to me.


2013 Audi S4 6MT - 45K miles
- OCI every 5K miles
- Motul X-cess 5w-40
- Mann OEM oil filter
Re: Thin 0w20? [Re: BucDan] #5377945 03/16/20 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by BucDan
0W-8 wow. That's like water. Now, I wouldn't be shocked if 0W-4 will release down the road. For some reason, that seems crazy to me.

It will likely end with 0w08. There won't be any gasoline engines coming out of factories in 10-12 years. The big push is on to halt the warming climate. Everyone is into solar / electric productions this year.


2019 Hyundai Santa Fe 2.4 GDI - Pennzoil Ultra Platinum 5w30 / OEM 35504 Filter
2020 Kia Soul X-Line 2.0 MPI - a 50-50 blend of Pennzoil Platinum HM & Pennzoil Gold 5w30 // AC Delco PF1127 Ecore




Re: Thin 0w20? [Re: Triple_Se7en] #5377966 03/16/20 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Triple_Se7en

It will likely end with 0w08. There won't be any gasoline in 10-12 years.
Everyone is into solar this year.


Doubtful, the average car is 20 years old and getting older every day
many applications simply don’t make sense for EV.

In my state there are under 3000 EVs registered in total out of 6 million and that number isn’t going up due to $665 title+registration fines.

Rate of adoption outside 3 states is actually going in reverse.

I would estimate you will see laggards with gas engines still in 50 years unless some dramatic change occurs

Last edited by Rmay635703; 03/16/20 04:17 PM.
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