House electric questions

[supton]

I asked an electrician friend once about twisting wires before putting on the wirenut. He said it wasn't required--but if you didn't do it on the job, that'd be the end of your job (I think he was union, at least for a while).

Backstab outlets I do believe are UL listed, yet they are not very well liked by anyone.

So it's a legit question. Just because something meets spec doesn't mean it's good (nor liked). Me, once someone pointed out Wago's to me, I looked it up, and found that wirenuts aren't allowed in (UK and maybe Europe), but these are. I thought about it and decided I'd run with them.

 

[Hall]

His employer could be 100% right or 100% wrong in regards to pre-twisting wire before installing a wire-nut. Some manufacturers say to pre-twist, some say it's optional, some say not to do it.

I think the "issue" with backstab connections is they're easy for the DIY types so professionals use that for criticizing them. I don't use them myself either (my Dad was an electrician and told me not to) but if you use them, stick that outlet or switch back in the box and never touch it, I find it hard to believe the wire is going to magically come loose.

Lastly, yeah, push-type connectors are very popular outside of the US. I do think that if they're allowed by the NEC - which I find to often be very cautious and slow to change - they're safe to use. Again, do they make things easier for the DIY'er ? Yeap, they sure do. Do they allow a fully licensed electrician to do the same job faster and 100% as safe ? Yeap, they sure do.

 

[quint]

If anyone has never seen the inside of a push connector, here is one I took apart last night. This is an Ideal In-Sure from Home Depot. I think I paid $7-ish for the bag. My boss at work rewired a flip house that had knob and tube, and used these in all the boxes after rewiring the whole house (and everything passed inspection no problem) but after seeing this his eyebrows went way up and he bit his lip and said "well not my house anymore anyway...". I dont think he is too impressed either. I might be tempted to use them on a 15A circuit running LED light fixtures or whatever, but I'm not trusting these on my 20A garage receptacle circuits running power saws and shop vacs and other higher draw items. I'm sure they have been tested and tested again and there are probably millions of them out there in use... I'm just not feeling it. I'll stick to wire nuts for now.

The wiring in my detached garage is a nightmare, no ground, no ground rods, no GFI's, they used 12 gauge Romex overhead outside 120 feet between the house and the garage, etc. Its really an absolute mess. I am redoing all of it (underground UF-B, subpanel, ground rods, GFI's, etc) and thought I'd give the push connectors a try... after prying one apart, I'm not impressed and will be chucking the other 99 connectors into my miscellaneous electrical parts box to be thoroughly ignored and will go back to wire nuts.

 

[supton]

Originally Posted by quint
thought I'd give the push connectors a try... after prying one apart, I'm not impressed and will be chucking the other 99 connectors into my miscellaneous electrical parts box to be thoroughly ignored and will go back to wire nuts.


Yeah those do not look very good to me either. I'd worry about it losing springy-ness with any heating, which might come about if any corrosion occurs. I opened up an LED light strip I got recently and it appears to have push in connectors, which might be fine in a light load, dunno about any "real" load though.

The Wago's feel spring loaded.

 

[KrisZ]

Thanks for posting this quint. The use of wire nuts never bothered me enough to look for alternatives.
I was not aware of the push connectors as replacement for wire nuts until this thread. After seeing your pictures of a disassembled one, I will stick to wire nuts.

 

[Hall]

I installed an ecobee thermostat not long ago and it uses push-in terminals. Granted, this is low-voltage (5vdc or 12vdc). I was also looking at replacing an exhaust fan in one of our bathrooms and many of them look like they use push-in connectors instead of bare wire (and wire nuts). I'm sure that ease-of-use is high on their list of benefits.

 

[quint]

If you notice in the pictures the wire being a bit chewed up... that's because I was repeatedly testing how much it took to pull the wire out. Its kind of like Chinese handcuffs, the harder you pull, the less successful you'll be. If you grab it and yank, its not going anywhere. If you just barely pull on it and rotate it very slightly side to side, it comes right out with very little effort.

I might be tempted to try Wago connectors, haven't actually handled one but have seen cutaways on google, they look like they may be a bit more sturdy and have better contact.

 

[supton]

Originally Posted by quint
I might be tempted to try Wago connectors, haven't actually handled one but have seen cutaways on google, they look like they may be a bit more sturdy and have better contact.

This is what I bought to try out, and wound up buying a couple boxes of 2&3's to keep on hand.

If nothing else you might like it for wiring lighting that uses stranded wire.

 

[Hall]

Originally Posted by quint
If you just barely pull on it and rotate it very slightly side to side, it comes right out with very little effort.

They do claim to be reusable but if you have 2-3 wires inserted, it's going to be awfully tricky to rotate the individual conductor to work it back out.

 

[diyjake]

Quint thanks for the post, that does look like a weak connection. Would be nice to see how wago 221 is compared to the Ideal ones, I'm sure they have a more solid connection.

 

[Linctex]

Originally Posted by supton

Backstab outlets I do believe are UL listed, yet they are not very well liked by anyone.


Because the contact area is TINY.

You are asking for a lot of amp to flow through a very small metal-to-metal area.

 

[diyjake]

Originally Posted by Linctex
Originally Posted by supton

Backstab outlets I do believe are UL listed, yet they are not very well liked by anyone.


Because the contact area is TINY.

You are asking for a lot of amp to flow through a very small metal-to-metal area.


That makes sense but wouldn't you think UL would think about all of that before certifying it? Same thing with Wago lever or any other push connectors, they have a tiny contact area compared to wire nuts.

 

[mk378]

UL listing doesn't imply the product is unlikely to fail, only that should the product fail it is not likely to start a fire.

The old backstab outlets had the spring made as part of the contact plate, thus it had to be the same material and that material had to be a compromise between conductivity and springiness. It wasn't that good at either function.

 

[Schandyman]

Originally Posted by Wolf359
Originally Posted by mx5miata
Ground screws should only get one wire under them.

There's tandem breakers so double tapping doesn't have to be done.


Tandem is good if you don't have space in the panel to add extra breakers. OP said he has several available slots so he should just get another regular breaker. Those are typically cheaper than tandem breakers anyway.

Or if the box even takes tandems. I bought one, thinking I'd do that (both circuits are in the same area). But no go, my panel does not support tandems. Back it went for a pair of regulars, about the same price anyhow.

If your panel cant accept tandem breakers. You can pigtail the wires together and run one wire off the breaker. Like this photo

 

[Schandyman]

If anyone has never seen the inside of a push connector, here is one I took apart last night. This is an Ideal In-Sure from Home Depot. I think I paid $7-ish for the bag. My boss at work rewired a flip house that had knob and tube, and used these in all the boxes after rewiring the whole house (and everything passed inspection no problem) but after seeing this his eyebrows went way up and he bit his lip and said "well not my house anymore anyway...". I dont think he is too impressed either. I might be tempted to use them on a 15A circuit running LED light fixtures or whatever, but I'm not trusting these on my 20A garage receptacle circuits running power saws and shop vacs and other higher draw items. I'm sure they have been tested and tested again and there are probably millions of them out there in use... I'm just not feeling it. I'll stick to wire nuts for now.

The wiring in my detached garage is a nightmare, no ground, no ground rods, no GFI's, they used 12 gauge Romex overhead outside 120 feet between the house and the garage, etc. Its really an absolute mess. I am redoing all of it (underground UF-B, subpanel, ground rods, GFI's, etc) and thought I'd give the push connectors a try... after prying one apart, I'm not impressed and will be chucking the other 99 connectors into my miscellaneous electrical parts box to be thoroughly ignored and will go back to wire nuts.

I try avoiding the use of any connector that is stab or snap/pinch such as wagos especially if theres going to be high amp draw. It's funny that back stabbing receptacles are so frowned upon yet push connectors and wagos are nothing more than a back stabbed device, but no one thinks twice about using those connectors. Where the push in stab style connectors really shine are "relamping" fluorescent fixtures with new ballasts or rewiring for LED.

 

[zzyzzx]

Consider arc-fault breakers to replace some of the existing 15 and 20 amp 110V circuit breakers.

Those things take up too much space.
Personally I think it would be safer to use regular breakers and armored cable.

 

[Schandyman]

Those things take up too much space.
Personally I think it would be safer to use regular breakers and armored cable.

Arc fault protection is code & starting to be adopted in a lot more jurisdictions. I'd find the 1st receptacle upstream install an arc fault device similar to a gfci the rest downstream will be protected. Armored cable/MC is good for exposed work where nm cable could be susceptible to damage and you dont want to run rigid conduit.

 

[dlundblad]

Old post, but I’ll reply. I think only Square D QO breakers allow for 2 wires although yes it can be frowned upon. You could just wire nut the wires together with a 3rd short wire in the panel and then hook the shorter wire to the breaker.

On QO breakers, I put the wire in the bottom slot if on the right side of the panel and on the top slot if on the left side of the panel. When the clamp is tightened, the wire goes with it. That being said, 2 wires isn’t ideal, but not necessary wrong.

The single ground screw is a good question. I think the idea behind that is in the event of an outlet failing, the ground wire is not broken or disconnected since they tailed and crimped in the box.

 

[Wolf359]

Old post, but I’ll reply. I think only Square D QO breakers allow for 2 wires although yes it can be frowned upon. You could just wire nut the wires together with a 3rd short wire in the panel and then hook the shorter wire to the breaker.

On QO breakers, I put the wire in the bottom slot if on the right side of the panel and on the top slot if on the left side of the panel. When the clamp is tightened, the wire goes with it. That being said, 2 wires isn’t ideal, but not necessary wrong.

The single ground screw is a good question. I think the idea behind that is in the event of an outlet failing, the ground wire is not broken or disconnected since they tailed and crimped in the box.

Cutler Hammer can also allows two wires, I think you have to check the breaker.