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Originally Posted by Talent_Keyhole
LOL, I never said that I did a UOA on that engine in my OP. You repeatedly said the remaining oil in an engine will be diluted by the new oil and is irrelevant.
You stated:
Originally Posted by Talent_Keyhole
The original oil sump contained 25 ppm iron wear. The new mixture within a few minutes contained 5 ppm iron wear. Actually TBN dropped by 10% along with viscosity.
So then where is the basis of this comment if not in respect to your excursion in the OP? The only thing consistent in this thread is your lack of consistency. And yes, I maintain that the amount remaining, diluted by new oil, is irrelevant.
Originally Posted by Talent_Keyhole
Where is your evidence that retention of wear metals that pass through your oil filter is not causing accelerated wear in the engine,
That's the purpose of the oil filter, to catch the particles that can cause damage. The levels you see in a UOA, the particles that are NOT caught by the filter, are too small to cause damage and simply indicate the level of contamination.
Originally Posted by Talent_Keyhole
or the old oil is not oxidizing to a point where it is leaving varnish, sludge, and build-up of carbon, plugging the oil drain holes under your oil control rings, causing stuck rings, and massive blow by and oil consumption.
Because the old oil is immediately diluted to the point of irrelevance by the new oil full of fresh antioxidants, dispersants, detergents...etc.
Originally Posted by Talent_Keyhole
Have you heard of by-pass filters and their benefits? Like you said, oil does not go bad on its own.
Yep, and there are also centrifuges that can be used to remove soot in diesel applications. Bypass filtration does two things:
1. Removes impurities down to a level far beyond the capability of a traditional full-flow spin-on filter
2. Significantly increases the overall capacity of the oil system on a passenger vehicle
Bypass filtration allows for longer intervals by increasing the sump volume and thus the volume over which contaminants, acids and dilutants are spread, but it doesn't allow the oil to last forever, you still will run out of the ability for the oil to neutralize acids and the lube can still succumb to fuel dilution.
Originally Posted by Talent_Keyhole
I never said it was fixed amount or percentage. it does vary.
Then why keep focusing on the 20% figure?
Originally Posted by Talent_Keyhole
My 2.4L Ecotec with VVT retains about 10-12% and it only has one cylinder head and two cams. A smaller turbo charged engine, say a 1.4 liter with smaller sump, and oil lines and turbo would likely be a higher percentage. When you get into the V engines with 6 and 8 cylinders, your have two cylinder heads with dual cams, two seperate VVT systems, larger capacity pumps, the mulitple oil galleries in each head. It gets even higher. Other members have already looked up their factory service manuals and confirmed that these modern engines retain much more oil than in previous years. My first engine rebuild was a Ford 289, V-8 in 1983. It had only one cam, rocker arms, solid lifters. Very little oil was found still in the engine upon teardown. Not the case with these newer engine designs.
The S62 in my M5 was DOHC with VCT and had a pretty wild oil system by anyone's standards. There were solenoids that you needed to activate during the oil change to get the oil out of the bypasses on either side of the pan/engine that were used to prevent starvation during high-G load cornering. For this you needed the BMW scan tool. That engine held 7L of oil which I changed at my standard 10-12,000Km interval with M1 0w-40. UOA's showed significant fuel dilution. The engine however, stayed quite clean:
![[Linked Image]](https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/attachments/usergals/2020/01/full-21028-40415-m5driveway02.jpg "[Linked Image]")
Originally Posted by Talent_Keyhole
So you counter my so called anecdote with one of your own. I am impressed. You said if I change the oil on a regular basis I need not worry about sludge, varnish and carbon or any of that residual oil.
In a mechanically sound engine without any issues like a plugged PCV, leaking injector or some other qualifier that will rapidly degrade the lubricant, yes.
Originally Posted by Talent_Keyhole
Now you speculate and make incredulous claims that the Mobil 1 and Pennzoil oil she uses is a subpar lubricant. The sponsor of this forum may not be please with your comment.
You never indicated what lubricant was used in your wife's car. Like with your claim about UOA data, you just keep adding stuff to support your position here, you brought her vehicle up separate from the OP. No oil is going to fix a mechanical issue, so if the lubricant was of a sufficient quality, then there is likely a mechanical issue with the vehicle. I'd have expected somebody who is so obviously learned in this field and certainly not just on here to argue with people to already know that of course.
Originally Posted by Talent_Keyhole
Now its a waste of resource and complicated,
Yes, it's both a waste of resources and an over-complication of a very simple process.
Originally Posted by Talent_Keyhole
and only a million parts per million of wear metals and no tangible benefits.
It's certainly not a million parts per million. Contaminants are measured in parts per million so if your UOA has 5ppm of iron that means there are 5 parts dilute in one million parts of oil.
Originally Posted by Talent_Keyhole
How much is too much. 100 ppm, a 1000 ppm. Why do labs flag wear rates and limits of less than 100 ppm and recommend immediate oil changes.
Depends on what the contaminant is, but given you haven't done a UOA despite continually dragging out data that can only be gleaned in a UOA, I'm not sure how discussing this is beneficial?
Fe for example, tracks with mileage/hours. The level of iron will increase in a linear fashion relative to its time in service. The condemnation point for iron can be as high as 150ppm, provided some other contaminant or characteristic doesn't condemn the lubricant first. But, if your iron uptake rate is significantly higher than it should be, then you might have a mechanical problem. This will get your lubricant flagged by the analysis company.
Other contaminants like lead or copper, which shouldn't be present in any significant amount in an analysis, if elevated, will cause a flag.
If you have contaminants that shouldn't be in the oil, ones that could indicate a coolant leak, that will get you a flag. Same with what can indicate an air intake tract leak (silicon).
Then of course there are TAN and TBN.
Originally Posted by Talent_Keyhole
Any now you finish off with more anecdotal accounts of million mile vehicles without flushing.
Well, they are certainly more than what you've brought to the table at this juncture. All I see is a combative attitude from a guy who came on here to argue
Originally Posted by Talent_Keyhole
Only a few examples.
Yeah, because most people don't hold onto a vehicle for that amount of time, or the bodies rot off them, or something else puts them in the wrecking yard first.
Originally Posted by Talent_Keyhole
What about the millions of vehicles that did not make it past a fraction of that mileage.
What about them? Where is your data supporting your premise that doing an oil flush would have prevented their transmission from grenading or the body from rotting off?
Originally Posted by Talent_Keyhole
Please provide your evidence seeing that you demand that of me.
Go look at any taxi or limo fleet. Next.
Originally Posted by Talent_Keyhole
Next you will claim that the engineers at the OEMs accounted for this percentage of oil to be pushed to twice it's life expectancy without any harmful affects.
What determines the life expectancy of the oil? What are you basing that on? Mobil 1 EP is obviously capable of being run significantly longer than Supertech, despite both having the same OEM approvals, so broad brushed ambiguous nonsense isn't your friend here. OEM intervals are based on extensive internal testing with a standard oil of a minimum level of quality which typically aligns with either a basic API approval or one that the OEM has crafted, such as DEXOS. They aren't pulling these intervals out of thin air.
Originally Posted by Talent_Keyhole
Now that wasted all your ammo, care to present your evidence that retention of wear metals, fuel contamination, air borne hard particulates, water contamination in some cases, depleted additives, soot, sludge and carbon in the old oil has no negative affect on the new oil or the engine.
Again, dilution and filtration are your friends here, those were all touched-on in my earlier points. I've not even opened the ammo box yet, I'm just using what is in the mag while you've been waving your cap gun at me.
LOL, I never said that I did a UOA on that engine in my OP. You repeatedly said the remaining oil in an engine will be diluted by the new oil and is irrelevant.
You stated:
Originally Posted by Talent_Keyhole
The original oil sump contained 25 ppm iron wear. The new mixture within a few minutes contained 5 ppm iron wear. Actually TBN dropped by 10% along with viscosity.
So then where is the basis of this comment if not in respect to your excursion in the OP? The only thing consistent in this thread is your lack of consistency. And yes, I maintain that the amount remaining, diluted by new oil, is irrelevant.
Originally Posted by Talent_Keyhole
Where is your evidence that retention of wear metals that pass through your oil filter is not causing accelerated wear in the engine,
That's the purpose of the oil filter, to catch the particles that can cause damage. The levels you see in a UOA, the particles that are NOT caught by the filter, are too small to cause damage and simply indicate the level of contamination.
Originally Posted by Talent_Keyhole
or the old oil is not oxidizing to a point where it is leaving varnish, sludge, and build-up of carbon, plugging the oil drain holes under your oil control rings, causing stuck rings, and massive blow by and oil consumption.
Because the old oil is immediately diluted to the point of irrelevance by the new oil full of fresh antioxidants, dispersants, detergents...etc.
Originally Posted by Talent_Keyhole
Have you heard of by-pass filters and their benefits? Like you said, oil does not go bad on its own.
Yep, and there are also centrifuges that can be used to remove soot in diesel applications. Bypass filtration does two things:
1. Removes impurities down to a level far beyond the capability of a traditional full-flow spin-on filter
2. Significantly increases the overall capacity of the oil system on a passenger vehicle
Bypass filtration allows for longer intervals by increasing the sump volume and thus the volume over which contaminants, acids and dilutants are spread, but it doesn't allow the oil to last forever, you still will run out of the ability for the oil to neutralize acids and the lube can still succumb to fuel dilution.
Originally Posted by Talent_Keyhole
I never said it was fixed amount or percentage. it does vary.
Then why keep focusing on the 20% figure?
Originally Posted by Talent_Keyhole
My 2.4L Ecotec with VVT retains about 10-12% and it only has one cylinder head and two cams. A smaller turbo charged engine, say a 1.4 liter with smaller sump, and oil lines and turbo would likely be a higher percentage. When you get into the V engines with 6 and 8 cylinders, your have two cylinder heads with dual cams, two seperate VVT systems, larger capacity pumps, the mulitple oil galleries in each head. It gets even higher. Other members have already looked up their factory service manuals and confirmed that these modern engines retain much more oil than in previous years. My first engine rebuild was a Ford 289, V-8 in 1983. It had only one cam, rocker arms, solid lifters. Very little oil was found still in the engine upon teardown. Not the case with these newer engine designs.
The S62 in my M5 was DOHC with VCT and had a pretty wild oil system by anyone's standards. There were solenoids that you needed to activate during the oil change to get the oil out of the bypasses on either side of the pan/engine that were used to prevent starvation during high-G load cornering. For this you needed the BMW scan tool. That engine held 7L of oil which I changed at my standard 10-12,000Km interval with M1 0w-40. UOA's showed significant fuel dilution. The engine however, stayed quite clean:
Originally Posted by Talent_Keyhole
So you counter my so called anecdote with one of your own. I am impressed. You said if I change the oil on a regular basis I need not worry about sludge, varnish and carbon or any of that residual oil.
In a mechanically sound engine without any issues like a plugged PCV, leaking injector or some other qualifier that will rapidly degrade the lubricant, yes.
Originally Posted by Talent_Keyhole
Now you speculate and make incredulous claims that the Mobil 1 and Pennzoil oil she uses is a subpar lubricant. The sponsor of this forum may not be please with your comment.
You never indicated what lubricant was used in your wife's car. Like with your claim about UOA data, you just keep adding stuff to support your position here, you brought her vehicle up separate from the OP. No oil is going to fix a mechanical issue, so if the lubricant was of a sufficient quality, then there is likely a mechanical issue with the vehicle. I'd have expected somebody who is so obviously learned in this field and certainly not just on here to argue with people to already know that of course.
Originally Posted by Talent_Keyhole
Now its a waste of resource and complicated,
Yes, it's both a waste of resources and an over-complication of a very simple process.
Originally Posted by Talent_Keyhole
and only a million parts per million of wear metals and no tangible benefits.
It's certainly not a million parts per million. Contaminants are measured in parts per million so if your UOA has 5ppm of iron that means there are 5 parts dilute in one million parts of oil.
Originally Posted by Talent_Keyhole
How much is too much. 100 ppm, a 1000 ppm. Why do labs flag wear rates and limits of less than 100 ppm and recommend immediate oil changes.
Depends on what the contaminant is, but given you haven't done a UOA despite continually dragging out data that can only be gleaned in a UOA, I'm not sure how discussing this is beneficial?
Fe for example, tracks with mileage/hours. The level of iron will increase in a linear fashion relative to its time in service. The condemnation point for iron can be as high as 150ppm, provided some other contaminant or characteristic doesn't condemn the lubricant first. But, if your iron uptake rate is significantly higher than it should be, then you might have a mechanical problem. This will get your lubricant flagged by the analysis company.
Other contaminants like lead or copper, which shouldn't be present in any significant amount in an analysis, if elevated, will cause a flag.
If you have contaminants that shouldn't be in the oil, ones that could indicate a coolant leak, that will get you a flag. Same with what can indicate an air intake tract leak (silicon).
Then of course there are TAN and TBN.
Originally Posted by Talent_Keyhole
Any now you finish off with more anecdotal accounts of million mile vehicles without flushing.
Well, they are certainly more than what you've brought to the table at this juncture. All I see is a combative attitude from a guy who came on here to argue
Originally Posted by Talent_Keyhole
Only a few examples.
Yeah, because most people don't hold onto a vehicle for that amount of time, or the bodies rot off them, or something else puts them in the wrecking yard first.
Originally Posted by Talent_Keyhole
What about the millions of vehicles that did not make it past a fraction of that mileage.
What about them? Where is your data supporting your premise that doing an oil flush would have prevented their transmission from grenading or the body from rotting off?
Originally Posted by Talent_Keyhole
Please provide your evidence seeing that you demand that of me.
Go look at any taxi or limo fleet. Next.
Originally Posted by Talent_Keyhole
Next you will claim that the engineers at the OEMs accounted for this percentage of oil to be pushed to twice it's life expectancy without any harmful affects.
What determines the life expectancy of the oil? What are you basing that on? Mobil 1 EP is obviously capable of being run significantly longer than Supertech, despite both having the same OEM approvals, so broad brushed ambiguous nonsense isn't your friend here. OEM intervals are based on extensive internal testing with a standard oil of a minimum level of quality which typically aligns with either a basic API approval or one that the OEM has crafted, such as DEXOS. They aren't pulling these intervals out of thin air.
Originally Posted by Talent_Keyhole
Now that wasted all your ammo, care to present your evidence that retention of wear metals, fuel contamination, air borne hard particulates, water contamination in some cases, depleted additives, soot, sludge and carbon in the old oil has no negative affect on the new oil or the engine.
Again, dilution and filtration are your friends here, those were all touched-on in my earlier points. I've not even opened the ammo box yet, I'm just using what is in the mag while you've been waving your cap gun at me.
![[Linked Image]](https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/attachments/usergals/2020/01/full-71039-40428-fb_img_1579397259419.jpg "[Linked Image]")
