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I submit that an EV is a fossil fuel vehicle when charged off the US grid #5321446 01/13/20 10:40 AM
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LoneRanger Offline OP
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Most of our power generation is from coal or natural gas in the US. Therefore, an electric vehicle isn't really purely "green." Charging it burns coal or natural gas. Not to mention the effect on the environment of lithium mining in developing nations.



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Re: I submit that an EV is a fossil fuel vehicle when charged off the US grid [Re: LoneRanger] #5321448 01/13/20 10:40 AM
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I agree...but to what end?


2019 CX5 Grand Touring Reserve
Re: I submit that an EV is a fossil fuel vehicle when charged off the US grid [Re: Ws6] #5321453 01/13/20 10:44 AM
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popcorn


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Re: I submit that an EV is a fossil fuel vehicle when charged off the US grid [Re: LoneRanger] #5321458 01/13/20 10:54 AM
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supton Offline
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I dunno. Most of those MPGe claims seem very high, like 100 MPGe. But I'm not sure what the well-to-wheels analysis is currently running--is MPGe well to wheels, or just outlet to wheels?

An electric power plan is quite efficient; the transmissions lines so-so, and the car itself quite. But I don't know how the compare.

Thus an EV could be green(er). If less oil has to be pumped per mile that it moves. Lifecycle costs could be interesting too. Batteries with toxic materials vs toxic emissions from the tailpipe. shrug I'd have to read some articles to just get familiar with the ways to look at it.


2011 Toyota Camry, base, 2.5L/6MT, 200k, hers
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Re: I submit that an EV is a fossil fuel vehicle when charged off the US grid [Re: LoneRanger] #5321465 01/13/20 11:02 AM
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Burt Offline
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I think it safe to say that when electric cars are plugged in, natural gas fired generation most commonly increases to meet the demand. Coal and nuclear are based loaded, wind and solar aren't dispatchable. Therefore EV's are powered by gas-by-wire. Not all fossil fuels are equal in terms of environmental impact, natural gas is a lot better than gasoline in terms of carbon and other emissions.

As with most things, the truth is in the middle. EV's are not totally green and renewable based, but they do have less environmental impact overall. We have natural gas coming out our ears and it is about 1/5 the cost of oil on an equivalent basis, so using it domestically is a good idea.


2011 RX350 63k miles
2015 Fiesta SFE eco-boost 34k miles
Re: I submit that an EV is a fossil fuel vehicle when charged off the US grid [Re: LoneRanger] #5321466 01/13/20 11:03 AM
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OP, I concur. +1, IBTL LOL

I would posit that there is plenty of information to show that over the cradle-to-grave analysis, EVs are not any more environmentally friendly than ICEs, other than the fact that they kick the "visible" pollution can down the block to the power stations. I also posit that considering we already have several states with rolling brownouts and other grid concerns, introducing EVs at the proposed rates will far outstrip supply. Therefore electricity rates will skyrocket even further, and people with EVs will either be stuck at home because they can't pay the electric bill, or we shall bring the grid crashing down in a way that cripples a large area. Only way EVs make "grid" sense is with individual charging stations of solar or wind power at each owner's site, because there's no way our current supply can absorb another 100+ something GW of load. There was an article in Fuels & Lubes about lithium supply and the fact they are looking at mining something like 150GW of lithium in the next 5 years. The energy has to come from somewhere to recharge those darn things! SMH @ people with blinders on...

Re: I submit that an EV is a fossil fuel vehicle when charged off the US grid [Re: LoneRanger] #5321480 01/13/20 11:18 AM
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zzyzzx Offline
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Still better then burning imported oil, assuming that we still do that.

Re: I submit that an EV is a fossil fuel vehicle when charged off the US grid [Re: LoneRanger] #5321482 01/13/20 11:20 AM
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People are mostly easy to fool.. The pollution is over the mountain range so the pollution doesn't exist


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Re: I submit that an EV is a fossil fuel vehicle when charged off the US grid [Re: LoneRanger] #5321484 01/13/20 11:20 AM
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BMWTurboDzl Offline
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It's orders of magnitude greener than an ICE. It's even better on a cost basis vs ICE.

Yes lithium mining generates vast amount of localized pollution (primarily the high desert in Chile) but its not comparable to the amount of heavy metal pollution generated by coal mining and the air pollution generated by refineries when they flare product.

Last edited by BMWTurboDzl; 01/13/20 11:32 AM.

“It took untold generations to get you where you are. A little gratitude might be in order. If you’re going to insist on bending the world to your way, you better have your reasons.”

435i
Re: I submit that an EV is a fossil fuel vehicle when charged off the US grid [Re: LoneRanger] #5321486 01/13/20 11:22 AM
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Rmay635703 Offline
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Originally Posted by LoneRanger
Most of our power generation is from coal or natural gas in the US. Therefore, an electric vehicle isn't really purely "green." Charging it burns coal or natural gas. Not to mention the effect on the environment of lithium mining in developing nations.


I call BS

https://blog.ucsusa.org/dave-reichmuth/new-data-show-electric-vehicles-continue-to-get-cleaner

Refineries use about as much electricity to make a gallon of gasoline as is required to drive an EV 20 miles, the supply side of gasoline makes more pollution than your car makes burning that gallon of fuel.

On EVs ...
EVEN where I live
Local energy requirements are still covered by 90% hydro and nuclear.

“Our Coal” plants are here because of lax local environmental regs that allows other areas to import our comparatively cheap electricity.

Power generated here goes as far as Canada to the north and Illinois to the south.

Sadly the recent coal hybrid plants were just a government subsided cash grab
Other areas use our coal plants while we get zero benefit and also are forced to pay extra on our bills for their construction costs.

We went from 3 cent baseline electricity with a $9.99 fee to 9-11 cent electricity with a $50 fee over a period of 20 years and worse yet our population and energy use are falling meaning zero need for these extra plants.

Re: I submit that an EV is a fossil fuel vehicle when charged off the US grid [Re: LoneRanger] #5321488 01/13/20 11:23 AM
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czbrian Offline
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The electric grid is pretty clean now and gets better every year. US energy generation by source in 2018...

Coal 27.5%
Nat gas 35.2%
Renewable 16.9%
Nuclear 19.4%

https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=427&t=3

Then if you consider all the coal that has gone offline in 2019 and planned for 2020, the case for electric cars polluting less improves even further.


2019 Honda Pilot
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Re: I submit that an EV is a fossil fuel vehicle when charged off the US grid [Re: czbrian] #5321492 01/13/20 11:30 AM
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I would imagine a fair number do what Jeff does with direct solar.

Will be interesting to see if the EV Hummer works out … Mall Crawlers get ready !

Last edited by 4WD; 01/13/20 11:31 AM.
Re: I submit that an EV is a fossil fuel vehicle when charged off the US grid [Re: LoneRanger] #5321493 01/13/20 11:30 AM
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Depends on location and other variables.
I did solar, so the panels generate power to the grid during the day and I take it at night.
My net is negative; I generate more than I use.
I pay $15 per month to be on the PGE grid and i have a yearly true up. My true up is zero.

But depending on what your sources are, there is at least some truth to what you say.
Additionally, solar panel manufacture is not green.

Where does it go from here? There is huge opportunity in Renewable Energy.
I say America should be the leader.
Renewable Energy Job Creation

Last edited by JeffKeryk; 01/13/20 11:34 AM.

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Re: I submit that an EV is a fossil fuel vehicle when charged off the US grid [Re: zzyzzx] #5321495 01/13/20 11:34 AM
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BMWTurboDzl Offline
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Originally Posted by zzyzzx
Still better then burning imported oil, assuming that we still do that.


Oil is mostly NE US and Florida


https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/power-plants/?utm_term=.b586042245ea

Last edited by BMWTurboDzl; 01/13/20 11:36 AM.

“It took untold generations to get you where you are. A little gratitude might be in order. If you’re going to insist on bending the world to your way, you better have your reasons.”

435i
Re: I submit that an EV is a fossil fuel vehicle when charged off the US grid [Re: Rmay635703] #5321498 01/13/20 11:38 AM
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Burt Offline
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Originally Posted by Rmay635703
Originally Posted by LoneRanger
Most of our power generation is from coal or natural gas in the US. Therefore, an electric vehicle isn't really purely "green." Charging it burns coal or natural gas. Not to mention the effect on the environment of lithium mining in developing nations.


I call BS

https://blog.ucsusa.org/dave-reichmuth/new-data-show-electric-vehicles-continue-to-get-cleaner

Refineries use about as much electricity to make a gallon of gasoline as is required to drive an EV 20 miles, the supply side of gasoline makes more pollution than your car makes burning that gallon of fuel.

On EVs ...
EVEN where I live
Local energy requirements are still covered by 90% hydro and nuclear.

“Our Coal” plants are here because of lax local environmental regs that allows other areas to import our comparatively cheap electricity.

Power generated here goes as far as Canada to the north and Illinois to the south.

Sadly the recent coal hybrid plants were just a government subsided cash grab
Other areas use our coal plants while we get zero benefit and also are forced to pay extra on our bills for their construction costs.

We went from 3 cent baseline electricity with a $9.99 fee to 9-11 cent electricity with a $50 fee over a period of 20 years and worse yet our population and energy use are falling meaning zero need for these extra plants.


Your article looks assumes EV's are charged by rolled-in average generation, not generation on the margin.

Refiners aren't large electricity users relative to the volume of oil they process. Please cite the basis for your statement.

You live in Wisconsin? Please cite the basis for saying Wisconsin is 90% hydro and coal. Last I knew Wisconsin is pretty flat. We can't all move to eastern Canada to advantage ourselves of hydro so we can drive around pollution free.


2011 RX350 63k miles
2015 Fiesta SFE eco-boost 34k miles
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