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Originally Posted by Ws6
I dont care how I die really, so long as it's not lame, like suicidal pos driving into oncoming traffic/me, etc.


Woman I know died that exact way. Along with her husband and a friend. The friend's wife and the suicidal guy survived.

You never know when your number is up.
 
Originally Posted by RayCJ
.....Is drug and alcohol addiction a disease? I think so..... Everyone has different neuro-chemistry and some people can control their addictive nature no better than some other person can decide not to have leukemia or eczema.

At the risk of perhaps sounding a bit sarcastic, how about this for all of you people who can't seem to break away from this idea that alcohol addiction is somehow a, "disease". Take a trip to Phoenix Children's Hospital. Go to the Oncology Department and pay a visit to the room of some poor little 4 year old kid who is dying from Leukemia. You won't have a problem finding one, there are many.

Just look for the kid who has no hair from all the Chemotherapy he has been pumped full of, and more plastic tubes sticking out of him, than an aquarium at Pet Smart. Tell him that you have a "disease" too. You can't stop after your 4th Budweiser. I'm quite sure you will have the little guy's complete and total sympathy.
 
Originally Posted by Leo99
Originally Posted by Ws6
I dont care how I die really, so long as it's not lame, like suicidal pos driving into oncoming traffic/me, etc.


Woman I know died that exact way. Along with her husband and a friend. The friend's wife and the suicidal guy survived.

You never know when your number is up.

Yup. Like I said, not my preference, but if I'm dead, I wont really care. It's the things worse than death that bother me.
 
Originally Posted by billt460
Originally Posted by RayCJ
.....Is drug and alcohol addiction a disease? I think so..... Everyone has different neuro-chemistry and some people can control their addictive nature no better than some other person can decide not to have leukemia or eczema.

At the risk of perhaps sounding a bit sarcastic, how about this for all of you people who can't seem to break away from this idea that alcohol addiction is somehow a, "disease". Take a trip to Phoenix Children's Hospital. Go to the Oncology Department and pay a visit to the room of some poor little 4 year old kid who is dying from Leukemia. You won't have a problem finding one, there are many.

Just look for the kid who has no hair from all the Chemotherapy he has been pumped full of, and more plastic tubes sticking out of him, than an aquarium at Pet Smart. Tell him that you have a "disease" too. You can't stop after your 4th Budweiser. I'm quite sure you will have the little guy's complete and total sympathy.

People are genetically predisposed to addiction to various levels. As such, it qualifies.

Why dont you use your matrices for other things? I can think of many diseases I'd pick over advanced cancer. It's a wierd analogy best countered by saying "so you believe only the most horrific disease is the only real one?"
 
Originally Posted by Ws6
I can think of many diseases I'd pick over advanced cancer.

Therein lies the flaw in your thinking. You don't "pick" a deadly disease. It comes to you without an invitation. You choose to drink.
 
Originally Posted by billt460
Originally Posted by Ws6
I can think of many diseases I'd pick over advanced cancer.

Therein lies the flaw in your thinking. You don't "pick" a deadly disease. It comes to you without an invitation. You choose to drink.


And you don't pick to have neuro-chemistry that's pre-disposed to addiction.
 
Originally Posted by billt460
If Smith & Wesson ships a large number of AR-15's to a licensed FFL dealer, in a given town, and that dealer indiscriminately sells them to unqualified people who should not have them, is that S&W's fault?

If Smith & Wesson had even a whiff that something was amiss and an FFL was skirting selling requirements, yet they continued shipping and selling to that FFL, I would absolutely hold S&W accountable.

What you're describing is plausible deniability. Plausible deniability is the tool of cheats, sneaks, and liars.

Pharma knew something was up and they continued. How well is plausible deniability holding up for them in court? Not very well, I suppose:
Quote
Purdue Pharma offers $10-12 billion to settle opioid claims



Originally Posted by billt460
Going by your example, why didn't Wal-Mart or CVS start asking questions and making phone calls? They were the people who were putting all of these drugs directly into the peoples hands within their own community. Licensed pharmacists are not idiots. They knew the numbers were way out of whack before anyone else did.

I'm glad you brought that up. They're also culpable. They're getting their day in court too. McKesson is a distributor. CVS, Walgreens, and a number of other distributors and pharmacies are also named in other suits:
McKesson Agrees to Pay Record $150 ...uspicious Orders of Pharmaceutical Drugs
Thanks for supporting my point.
 
Originally Posted by RayCJ
And you don't pick to have neuro-chemistry that's pre-disposed to addiction.

Spare us. All of these excuses, (and that's all they are is excuses), do not change the fact the individual chooses to pick up the bottle. Be it pills or booze...... And not put it down when they do until they cause damage. Either to themselves or someone else..... Or else both. That cannot be compared to someone who is stricken with a deadly disease through no direct action of their own.

It takes years of constant drinking to destroy your life with alcohol. For many it's a lifetime. And the abuser knows exactly what they are doing with every swallow, every step of the way. They get fired because of it. Their marriage falls apart because of it. Their kids disown them because of it. Their friends disappear because of it. Their finances dissolve directly because of it. Their health slowly deteriorates because of it..... And through it all it can be stopped for good by not drinking. But regardless they continue to choose to drink.

Now you're going to sit there and compare that to a guy like Michael Landon, who goes to the doctor one day with a bellyache, thinking he has a bad case of indigestion, and dies from Pancreatic Cancer 2 months later? Or Farrah Fawcett who battled anal cancer for almost three years before dying in horrific pain. Where was their choice? Give me a break.

If a boozer stops drinking his so called "disease" is cured..... Until he starts again. Once again, it's his or her choice. The fact many do not possess the will power to stop because of their, "neuro-chemistry", flat out weak constitution, selfishness, and / or lack of caring for their families, friends, relatives, or what or whoever fails to motivate them, changes nothing. They made the decision to pick up that bottle every single time they did it.

A cancer patient never had any choice in the matter. That was taken from them the instant they were stricken. They're doomed. Yes, they can attempt to fight it with modern expensive medicine, and hope and pray for the best. People who drink to excess and destroy their own health, marriages, and jobs all did so by swallowing something excessively they had zero business touching in the first place. They knew it, but chose to do it anyway. Over and over. For years and years. That's not a "disease". It is simply a bad habit that reflects a complete lack of personal responsibility and control. Something there is far too much of in this country. And it's why we're up to 40,000+ deaths a year from Opioids, and still counting.

So naturally they're going to jump at any name tag that puts their personal bad decision into a different light. By tagging it as a, "disease". Which inserts the possibility that it just might not be their fault...... By comparing it to actual deadly diseases like cancer, that people have no choice in contracting in the first place. "Yeah, yeah, that's it. I have a DISEASE!! Let's blame it on that!" Sounds better than to be labeled a worthless drunk, pill popper, or bloody nosed Cocaine snorter. Everyone loves pity when they're down and out. The difference is the cancer patient earned it. The boozer did not.
 
Originally Posted by MrHorspwer
Originally Posted by billt460
If Smith & Wesson ships a large number of AR-15's to a licensed FFL dealer, in a given town, and that dealer indiscriminately sells them to unqualified people who should not have them, is that S&W's fault?

If Smith & Wesson had even a whiff that something was amiss and an FFL was skirting selling requirements, yet they continued shipping and selling to that FFL, I would absolutely hold S&W accountable.

What you're describing is plausible deniability. Plausible deniability is the tool of cheats, sneaks, and liars.

Pharma knew something was up and they continued. How well is plausible deniability holding up for them in court? Not very well, I suppose:
Quote
Purdue Pharma offers $10-12 billion to settle opioid claims



Originally Posted by billt460
Going by your example, why didn't Wal-Mart or CVS start asking questions and making phone calls? They were the people who were putting all of these drugs directly into the peoples hands within their own community. Licensed pharmacists are not idiots. They knew the numbers were way out of whack before anyone else did.

I'm glad you brought that up. They're also culpable. They're getting their day in court too. McKesson is a distributor. CVS, Walgreens, and a number of other distributors and pharmacies are also named in other suits:
McKesson Agrees to Pay Record $150 ...uspicious Orders of Pharmaceutical Drugs
Thanks for supporting my point.


A firearm, when used properly, causes death. The manufacturers know that -and they're even required to stamp it into the barrel of every gun. Everyone, right down to the lowest common denominator, knows that guns can kill you. [Side note: At this point you're probably thinking I'm some kind of screaming liberal. Be it known: You can have my guns after I've shot my last box of ammo and you pry them from my cold, dead hands].

Not everyone knows that virtually everyone on this planet can become addicted to a substance. The CEOs of "big pharma" companies (many of which have degrees in medicine or chemistry etc) know very darn well that about 10% of the population is predisposed to addiction more-so than the rest of society. -And those clever people found a way to legally sell pills that would hook those people like fish in a barrel.

Here's a quote from someone earlier in this thread: "It didn't matter because I never became addicted. Again, I followed the directions on the prescription bottle. "Every 4 hours, with no more than 4 pills in a 24 hour period", does not mean take 15 a day, and you'll get a great buzz on. This is what is happening".

Congratulations to the person who wrote that because you now know, you're not part of that 10% of addictive people. On the flip-side, I know both a former police officer and a florist who are the nicest, most respectable people you would ever want to meet. One got their elbow shattered in the line of duty, the other got hit by a truck while coming to work one day. Neither were drinkers or smokers prior to their injury. The police officer was given painkillers for 30 days and he took them as prescribed. AND GUESS WHAT? Unlike the quoted person, he did feel an incredible buzz from the very first time he took one of those pills. This was in the early 80's long before everyone knew pain pills can get you hooked. He had no clue what was happening. The florist did not feel a buzz but, since she had a shattered hip and broken back, she was given intra-veneous pain meds for a couple months and then given pills for months afterward. The result is that it re-wired her brain chemistry and she was then addicted.

Both of these people spent the next decade fixing their ruined lives. They tried through willpower. They tried to ween off. They tried to drink alcohol instead... They tried to get off those drugs with every ounce of energy they had.

"Big Pharma" new DARN WELL this was going to happen exactly the same way Britain knew opium was going to devastate the Chinese!

A great many people have hormones and brain chemistry that predisposes them to addiction. Their level of addiction is just as unpredictable as someone else's predisposition to other mental issues like depression or medical conditions like rheumatism, acne -and yes, even kids that get cancer!

And at the risk of sounding sarcastic, if you choose to not believe that, here's a song for you:

Boy the way Glen Miller played,
Songs that made the hit parade,
Guys like us we had it made,
Those were the days,
And you know where you were then,
Girls were girls and men were men,
Mister we could use a man like Herbert Hoover again,
Didn't need no welfare states
Everybody pulled his weight,
Gee our old Lasalle ran great,
Those were the days.

(For those too young to understand, look up "Archie Bunker").
 
Originally Posted by billt460
Originally Posted by RayCJ
And you don't pick to have neuro-chemistry that's pre-disposed to addiction.

Spare us. All of these excuses, (and that's all they are is excuses), do not change the fact the individual chooses to pick up the bottle. Be it pills or booze...... And not put it down when they do until they cause damage. Either to themselves or someone else..... Or else both. That cannot be compared to someone who is stricken with a deadly disease through no direct action of their own.

It takes years of constant drinking to destroy your life with alcohol. For many it's a lifetime. And the abuser knows exactly what they are doing with every swallow, every step of the way. They get fired because of it. Their marriage falls apart because of it. Their kids disown them because of it. Their friends disappear because of it. Their finances dissolve directly because of it. Their health slowly deteriorates because of it..... And through it all it can be stopped for good by not drinking. But regardless they continue to choose to drink.

Now you're going to sit there and compare that to a guy like Michael Landon, who goes to the doctor one day with a bellyache, thinking he has a bad case of indigestion, and dies from Pancreatic Cancer 2 months later? Or Farrah Fawcett who battled anal cancer for almost three years before dying in horrific pain. Where was their choice? Give me a break.

If a boozer stops drinking his so called "disease" is cured..... Until he starts again. Once again, it's his or her choice. The fact many do not possess the will power to stop because of their, "neuro-chemistry", flat out weak constitution, selfishness, and / or lack of caring for their families, friends, relatives, or what or whoever fails to motivate them, changes nothing. They made the decision to pick up that bottle every single time they did it.

A cancer patient never had any choice in the matter. That was taken from them the instant they were stricken. They're doomed. Yes, they can attempt to fight it with modern expensive medicine, and hope and pray for the best. People who drink to excess and destroy their own health, marriages, and jobs all did so by swallowing something excessively they had zero business touching in the first place. They knew it, but chose to do it anyway. Over and over. For years and years. That's not a "disease". It is simply a bad habit that reflects a complete lack of personal responsibility and control. Something there is far too much of in this country. And it's why we're up to 40,000+ deaths a year from Opioids, and still counting.

So naturally they're going to jump at any name tag that puts their personal bad decision into a different light. By tagging it as a, "disease". Which inserts the possibility that it just might not be their fault...... By comparing it to actual deadly diseases like cancer, that people have no choice in contracting in the first place. "Yeah, yeah, that's it. I have a DISEASE!! Let's blame it on that!" Sounds better than to be labeled a worthless drunk, pill popper, or bloody nosed Cocaine snorter. Everyone loves pity when they're down and out. The difference is the cancer patient earned it. The boozer did not.



Boy the way Glen Miller played,
Songs that made the hit parade,
Guys like us we had it made,
Those were the days,
And you know where you were then,
Girls were girls and men were men,
Mister we could use a man like Herbert Hoover again,
Didn't need no welfare states
Everybody pulled his weight,
Gee our old Lasalle ran great,
Those were the days.
 
Originally Posted by MrHorspwer
If Smith & Wesson had even a whiff that something was amiss and an FFL was skirting selling requirements, yet they continued shipping and selling to that FFL, I would absolutely hold S&W accountable.

How would they know? It's not their job to police FFL's or distributors sales networks. It's the job of the ATF. They manufacture the guns and ship them out to various distributors. Hundreds, and in some cases even thousands of them. They have zero control of them after they do. Or should they. It's NOT their responsibility. It's no different with pharmaceutical drugs controlled by the FDA.

They, (S&W), manufacture and distribute their product according to strict ATF laws, guidelines, and licenses. After the product leaves their factory, they are no more responsible for it than GM is after a car they just built rolls off the assembly line, and on to the transporter.

As soon as the end consumer causes an issue based on their actions, and their actions alone, right away we start a hunt for a, "bad guy". Because we as Americans have to have one. That's where all of this nonsense is going. It's nothing more than a big blame game.

The pharmaceutical companies have been producing this product relatively trouble free for decades. These medications have helped millions of patients over the years. Now all of a sudden we have a big problem with 40,000 + idiots a year dropping dead from taking them on their own terms, and not the doctor or pharmacy who prescribed them with a strict dosage they ignore. All because they won't get high unless they take more.

The drug companies are being backed into a corner by this by a runaway legal system in this country. And we've got guys like you cheering them on. The exact same way the tobacco companies were, and gun companies are now. The drug companies have no choice but to settle, or else they'll be run out of business by endless law suits. Would that be better?

All of this nonsense is happening because the public wants to make them the bad guy in this mess. The exact same public who are abusing the product to begin with. It's nothing but a cop out. A big expensive one that you and I will end up paying for. To the benefit of no one.

How many times have we heard that cigarettes are the only product, that taken as directed, will kill you? It's all B.S. Then don't smoke them. But no, that's being too responsible. It's better to blame the manufacturer.

Now you have these idiots dropping dead from this insane,"vaping". I can't believe anyone would be stupid enough to use such a product. Why not just eat D-Con and be done with it? But they do. Watch how fast they'll blame everyone but themselves. It will take a while because not enough have dropped dead yet. But far more than enough to show how stupid it is to use in the first place.

What's next, suing Ford because too many drunks are causing accidents, by crashing their vehicles? Or Kyocera because we suddenly have too many housewives cutting their fingers with their knives making dinner? Where does this stupid crap end? We are getting into very dangerous territory with all of this foolish nonsense in this country. Now you have lawyers advertising to the masses on television every night they might have compensation, "owed to them".... If they ever used a weed killer, a medication, a lawn and garden tool, a sex toy, a leaky raincoat, or whatever.

These are nothing but costly fishing expeditions that are bankrupting businesses left and right. All because they are being blamed for the poor decision making of others they have no control over. That is nothing more than a solid cornerstone on which to build a disaster. And we are well on our way. All this opiate nonsense is proving it as we speak.
 
Decades of skin cancer and have gone through this often … They write it but I don't fill the Rx when it's a small cut. I just take either of the popular OTC (or both). We discuss all this and he/she say try not to use Rx.
Last year I had 5 rounds in a peri neural Mohs surgery … so I actually filled the Rx just in case it gets bad, yep … I took two, slept really good … then went to OTC for a couple days. Take the Rx back and they'll get rid of it.
 
Originally Posted by RayCJ
Not everyone knows that virtually everyone on this planet can become addicted to a substance. The CEOs of "big pharma" companies (many of which have degrees in medicine or chemistry etc) know very darn well that about 10% of the population is predisposed to addiction more-so than the rest of society.

So what if they did? What would it change? When you put down your violin long enough, please explain why we have not had this run away addiction issue with opiate pain medication until the last decade? The fact is these drugs were NOT an out of control problem until recently. They've been on the market in this country in one form or another since the 30's.

The medication has not changed. If anything it is manufactured to stricter quality standards than ever before. Nor has the recommended dosage changed. If anything it is prescribed in smaller amounts now, than it was then. It does the same thing today it was designed, manufactured, and prescribed to do over 80 years ago. Control pain. So what has changed?

We now have a society who cannot control themselves using the product as directed. Who's fault is it, if the bottle say's, "No more than 4 pills in a 24 hour period"...... And the nit wit who's name is on the top decides to take 20? You want to stick the manufacturer with that?

You want to start blaming the manufacturer of this medication, for what 10% of the public it's prescribed to, "might become" if they choose to misuse it? That's ridiculous. So what is your "solution"? Run the manufacturer out of business with law suits, for blaming them because 10% of end users cannot control themselves? Stick to your violin and comedy act. You'll never be Henny Youngman, but you're better at it than this.
 
Originally Posted by billt460
How would they know?


...and this is the difference between your straw man argument and the real situation at hand. Pharma DID know!

Originally Posted by billt460
After the product leaves their factory, they are no more responsible for it than GM is after a car they just built rolls off the assembly line, and on to the transporter.


As someone who deals with export compliance and ITAR in the automotive industry, I can tell you that automakers (and suppliers) absolutely hold responsibility in ensuring that every commodity leaving an assembly plant is on it's way to a legitimate entity that is not under export restriction and is otherwise allowed to possess the technology in that vehicle. Even if an item is reexported after the first export, the manufacturer can still hold responsibility.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Export_Administration_Regulations
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Traffic_in_Arms_Regulations

I'm sorry if your beliefs don't match up with the reality of the law.
 
They are a real problem around here.

The local bird cage liner ran an article listing the pharmacies and number of pills dispensed, and it was staggering - literally millions of pills from each of the pharmacies. The profits at all levels must be enormous.

Many, perhaps most, of these doses wind up on the streets. These are felony offenses, so every defendant charged with these typs of offenses must have legal representation. If the pubic defender system gets conflicted out - often the case in these offenses - private lawyers have to be conscripted to represent people. I've had several instances of seniors dealing to supplement income, as well as smuggling these things into jails, a black market economy in it's own right.

There is really no place to put these people unless they are already locked up, so it is mostly catch and release, and the cycle repeats itself. There are counties around here that I am suprised have anyone left who can legally vote.
 
Originally Posted by MrHorspwer
...and this is the difference between your straw man argument and the real situation at hand. Pharma DID know!

So what? They knew their product went to two different licensed pharmacies. Perhaps more. In this case Wal-Mart and CVS. Just as any firearms manufacturer knows their weapons are being shipped to legitimate, legal FFL dealers or licensed distributors. Their responsibility ends there. With pharmaceuticals the rest is up to the doctor, and the local pharmacy who fills it.

You're trying to make it the legal responsibility of the manufacturer to oversee and regulate amounts. It's not, and never has been. Be the product guns or drugs. You don't like, or want to accept that. Too bad.

That's the local doctors and pharmacies job. And the FDA. If you think the manufacturer should be responsible, then get the law changed. No matter if you want to accept it or not, they did nothing illegal. Just because they are paying out on a settlement, does not make them guilty of anything. They were forced into a legal position that could result in their bankruptcy if they did not settle.

And if you think that is something to celebrate, you'll have to excuse me if I take a pass at being part of your cheerleading squad..... And none of this has a dam thing to do with the end user abusing the product. Which is the real problem. Not sales statistics and demographics. That's nothing but a big B.S. smoke screen.
 
Originally Posted by 4WD
Decades of skin cancer and have gone through this often … They write it but I don't fill the Rx when it's a small cut. I just take either of the popular OTC (or both). We discuss all this and he/she say try not to use Rx.
Last year I had 5 rounds in a peri neural Mohs surgery … so I actually filled the Rx just in case it gets bad, yep … I took two, slept really good … then went to OTC for a couple days. Take the Rx back and they'll get rid of it.


And that is very good. I did pretty much the same thing when I had a severe laceration across the fingertips requiring one fingertip to need re-attachment at the joint. I took half-dose of the pain pills for 3 days then tossed the rest. Regarding alcoholism and addictive traits, my family lineage does not put the odds in my favor. Not everyone has the knowledge or sense to realize this. We are lucky. A great many people will not be.


Originally Posted by billt460
Originally Posted by RayCJ
Not everyone knows that virtually everyone on this planet can become addicted to a substance. The CEOs of "big pharma" companies (many of which have degrees in medicine or chemistry etc) know very darn well that about 10% of the population is predisposed to addiction more-so than the rest of society.

So what if they did? What would it change? When you put down your violin long enough, please explain why we have not had this run away addiction issue with opiate pain medication until the last decade? The fact is these drugs were NOT an out of control problem until recently. They've been on the market in this country in one form or another since the 30's.

The medication has not changed. If anything it is manufactured to stricter quality standards than ever before. Nor has the recommended dosage changed. If anything it is prescribed in smaller amounts now, than it was then. It does the same thing today it was designed, manufactured, and prescribed to do over 80 years ago. Control pain. So what has changed?

We now have a society who cannot control themselves using the product as directed. Who's fault is it, if the bottle say's, "No more than 4 pills in a 24 hour period"...... And the nit wit who's name is on the top decides to take 20? You want to stick the manufacturer with that?

You want to start blaming the manufacturer of this medication, for what 10% of the public it's prescribed to, "might become" if they choose to misuse it? That's ridiculous. So what is your "solution"? Run the manufacturer out of business with law suits, for blaming them because 10% of end users cannot control themselves? Stick to your violin and comedy act. You'll never be Henny Youngman, but you're better at it than this.


WRONG: We have had this opiate problem for a long time. Why do you think the government banned narcotics in the early 1900's? Do your remember when Vicks Formula 44 contained Codeine? I sure do. They finally pulled it off the shelves in the early 70's. Do you have any idea how many old grandmothers, housewives and husbands were quietly buying Vicks 44 by the case back then? My grandmother owned a corner store. She sold more of that stuff than ANY product in the whole shop!!! LOL! It was kept quiet and never discussed or talked about back then. And this was in a nice peaceful suburban part of Chicago. -And it was going on everywhere in America!

And why did pain pills become a bigger problem a few decades later? Because the pharma companies increased the potency and it took 10-15 years to reach a tipping point. Starting in the 80's they manipulated the content to make it as powerful as possible. Ordinary opium and heroin are barely 1/10 as powerful as some of the "OXY" pain killers. Seriously? You don't know that? When the chemists were creating this stuff, they were writing internal memos warning of how addictive the stuff would be. Heck no.... Never let an out of control epidemic get in the way of double-digit profit margins! The Pharma companies re-wrote history and initially told doctors their product was not addictive. LOL: And smoking doesn't cause cancer either! I got a bridge in NY for sale. Interested?

One thing many people can't seem to understand (because they don't have an addictive predisposition) is that some people, once they take that first drink or pill, that's it! They are no longer thinking with their rational brain. Have you ever tried to argue with a pot head or dope addict? It's like talking to a wall. Have you ever argued with a drunk one night and then talked to them the next day? It's like Dr. Jeckyl and Mr. Hyde. Two totally different people. Once those chemicals are in them, their brain is different and, depending on how bad their addictive nature is, they might re-use that substance over and over.

Have you ever heard of an allergy? You know... Someone gets stung by a bee and goes into anaphylactic shock or even arrest? Have you heard of that???? Some people have really bad reactions, some people can pop a few benadryl and avoid a trip to the ER and some people (like me) can get stung 3-4 times and all I gotta do is pull the stingers out. It's different for everyone Guess what! It's because of genetic pre-dispositions. Do you think Pharmacy CEOs don't know all about genetic pre-dispostions? C'mon...

You are fortunate that you don't fall into addiction as easily as some folks and, you probably learned (from what should be common knowledge) that opiates are addictive. You treat them with respect and avoid them. Good. Excellent! You are one less person to put a drag on society. Unfortunately, not everyone is like you (and me) and have the sense to steer clear. Big Pharma knew all this and went for it. They lobbied in DC with MILLIONS of bucks. They spent MILLIONS training doctors how safe their products were. BS! BS! and more BS! What they did was no different than what happened between the Brits and Chinese 160 years ago.


No, not a violin player... Not a bleeding heart. Not by a long shot. -Total characterization on your part.
 
Originally Posted by RayCJ
WRONG: We have had this opiate problem for a long time. Why do you think the government banned narcotics in the early 1900's? Do your remember when Vicks Formula 44 contained Codeine? I sure do. They finally pulled it off the shelves in the early 70's.

Blah, blah, blah. All BULL. Here you go:
In the last 18 years alone since 1999, opioid deaths are up ALMOST 600%. It has all but doubled in the last 5 years alone. Regardless of how much B.S. interference you want to run, it's a new problem based on an entirely new form of modern day, responsibility lacking, abusing idiot, who wants to get high. The math doesn't lie. Nor do the bodies piling up in the morgue. Only the people who make all the excuses for them.
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