What's so special about the Honda ATF - Z1 ?

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All Honda ATF is relatively thin to begin with and uses an add pack that is very odd.

About as specific as I can be. See Mola at Specialty Formulations for a fluid that is exceptional quality for the Honda Automatics.

As I've mentioned before the trans set up is more a fluid drive manual with a trq converter like the '53 Dodge I owned.
 
quote:
Originally posted by Terry:
All Honda ATF is relatively thin to begin with and uses an add pack that is very odd.
Click to expand...
You can say that again. I tried "top tier" Mobil 1 ATF in my 95 Civic thinking I was doing a good thing, but the shifting was horrible, especially under hard acceleration. I ended up dumping it the very same day for the "cheaper" Honda ATF.
 
See that's the problem , we don't know for sure if it's are the same stuff, I mean regarding the Honda Oil. Anyways, you don't change the ATF Fluid that often like engine oil,so just to be safe, use the honda,if it is still under warranty.T
 
Since we are talking of Honda fluids, I got some Honda antifreeze at the local Honda dealer parts counter for 9.55? This on the surface sounds a tad high. However if you factor in the instructions which indicate the antifreeze is already 50/50 diluted, then really you are talking 19. plus per gal, which is even higher!!! . Another way of putting is is distilled water is being sold for 9.55 per gal!!!! But the truth is we don't even know if they are using distilled water!!?? This really does not give me the warm fuzzies at all.
 
My trans in my Toyota Tundra got a complete flush and fill with Mobil 1 ATF at 20,000 miles. I'm now at approx 56,000 miles with no adverse affects and no perceived changes in shift quality. I generally do not buy "OEM brand" fluids. It's simply overpriced stuff when most likely you can find a suitable replacement.
 
Given the well-documented, infamous troubles with Hondamatics (including warranty extensions to rebuild trannies well past the nominal 36,000 mile warranty), I still maintain Honda's engineers have the edge on what works fluid-wise. Honda doesn't make fluids, but their engineers sure as poop worked with their ATF supplier to develop a chemistry to cope with these units' heat and friction facing properties. Anyone else's "compatible" ATF is simply their best guess. Again, there seems to be a very vocal group on this forum that takes the attitude that the factory fluids are a rip-off and subpar. Neither has been shown to be true in the case of Honda Z-1 (or other automakers' proprietary fluids for that matter). For those who maintain otherwise, good luck - your choice, your transmission, and your money - in that order. For those who put XYZ brand "All Makes" ATF in and the transmission didn't immediately explode, what did y'all expect? Check back in when you actually have something to talk about - say about 95,000 more miles.
wink.gif
 
Ok lets see what we've got so far.

Sounds like a good ATF for this tranny would be something that can easily handle -
High Heat
High Friction
and is relative thin(I imagine we need a viscosity number here)

Which ATF oils fulfill these requirements ?


Besides this, some users reported using Valvoline and Amsoil ATF with success (Valvoline Mercon V,
Valvoline Maxlife ATF,Amsoil ATF), and they list the Z-1 spec on the product.

Looked up SpecialityFormulations website but dont seem to find any ATF (?)
 
Contact Mola directly for the formula to procure.

People like Mola and myself are technical people not webmasters. He is busy making fluids and I in testing them.
cheers.gif


I have not seen a properly reverse engineered formula in the aftermarket of any honda ATF fluid, besides the fluids we have done proprietary testing for Specialty Formulations.
 
quote:
Originally posted by AccordMDX:
Looked up SpecialityFormulations website but dont seem to find any ATF
Click to expand...
Their ATF is the AutoGlide BUT formulated for specific application. Contact SF and see if you can get a response.
 
quote:
Originally posted by Terry:
I have not seen a properly reverse engineered formula in the aftermarket of any honda ATF fluid, besides the fluids we have done proprietary testing for Specialty Formulations.
Click to expand...
Terry, thanks for your inputs on the subject at hand. They are very valuable and highly appreciated.

So if I am interpreting your comment correctly there is really no ATF on the market (for Honda auto trannies) that are better than Z1 ? The closest you can get is the one made by SF that meets Z1 spec(but nothing special or better as compared to Z1), correct ?
 
I have specialty formulation's ATF which he modified for ATF-Z1 in my '02 Accord V6 auto. It shifts as well as or better than the stock fluid did. I started changing out around 24000 miles and did one drain + 3 quart (give or take) refill every oil change for 2 oil changes (just about to roll over 30000 so I'm due for just one more soon, fortunately I bought the right # of quarts!).

It's good stuff and I trust molakule's formulations more than most anybody else's (Amsoil, Mobil, etc...)


Speaking of, what's the best fluid for a Nissan Maxima (2000 model year) with the V6?
 
So mixing the oem(z1) with the SF shouldn't be a problem. I was curious about that too because honda does not recommend a transmission "flush" so you wont get all the old fluid out.
I have heard about the 3 or 4 drain refills as an alternative but I thought they had to be in one session, not over a period of time.
 
AccordMDX, To meet ANY current Honda spec for ATF, the potential formulator needs a license from Honda ( not an option as they will not give it) or to reverse engineer the fluid.

From what I have seen of purported Honda replacement fluids Mola/SF is the only one who got it right. Actually exceeding the honda Z1 fluids and add pack capabilty while still providing the needed range of viscometrics.

IMHO Honda is using a unique add pack that the chinese wouldn't run in their tanks hydraulic drives any longer.

For instance I have Synergyn racing ATF in my 2000 civic and it works OK but is too thick and it shifts like it.

I choose Molas fluid over Z1.
 
The Z1 fluid is, to me, a compromise fluid because it can be used in a CVT tranny as well. The Maxlife states on their website that it is not to be used in a CVT. My owners manual states that if Z1 is not available, Dexron III can be used but shift quality MAY become worse. Well, it got better with the Maxlife Dexron III.
 
Terry,

Does that means the universal ATF that claims to be usable as Z1 replacement are not formulated to support Honda's design, but rather a solution that is a slightly better version of Dexron III (hence, reduced but not eliminate side effect)?

Do you think Honda's different add pack is due to their clutch pack material? I've heard from somewhere (forgot where) that it is because of their "low wear" clutch pack that they do not use filter.

Oh, and in your opinion, would SF's forumla for Honda Z1 be ok to use in tranny requiring Dexron II or Mercon V (i.e. old Toyota or Ford)
 
one last question before this thread goes into obilivion.

Has anyone tried (or would like to comment on) the following ATFs in a honda auto transmission requiring Z1 ?

RL Synthetic D4 ATF
RP Max ATF
M1 Synthetic ATF

Thanks!
 
AccordMDX, I haven't tried any of those, but I've installed SF's Z-1 formulation, and my tranny is shifting better and smoother than it did with the Honda fluid.

I would seriously give their fluid a try, and you won't have to flush, either, just install the 5 quarts that comes out when you remove the plug (at least that's what came out of my CR-V auto tranny).
 
quote:
Originally posted by Terry:
AccordMDX, To meet ANY current Honda spec for ATF, the potential formulator needs a license from Honda ( not an option as they will not give it) or to reverse engineer the fluid.

From what I have seen of purported Honda replacement fluids Mola/SF is the only one who got it right. Actually exceeding the honda Z1 fluids and add pack capabilty while still providing the needed range of viscometrics.

IMHO Honda is using a unique add pack that the chinese wouldn't run in their tanks hydraulic drives any longer.

For instance I have Synergyn racing ATF in my 2000 civic and it works OK but is too thick and it shifts like it.

I choose Molas fluid over Z1.
Click to expand...
OK, what add pack is Honda using?
 
I heard from tl.acurazine.com on the 2nd gen TL tranny failure thread, that the main failure of those V6 tranny is the 3rd gear clutch pack reaching 350C (not F) and burn out the "Carbon Kevlar" clutch pack. They go on and mentioned that Carbon Kevlar is already the strongest material to be used and it still fail.

So this is true. What kind of additive pack is good for Carbon Kevlar clutch pack?
 
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