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Re: stop/start oil filtering question [Re: 1978elcamino] #5043246
03/14/19 07:51 PM
03/14/19 07:51 PM
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,815
War Eagle
toneydoc Online happy
toneydoc  Online Happy

Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,815
War Eagle
I have one of the start/stop engines. I disable that every time I get in the Jeep and go.
I worry more about the starter being constantly used than the oil filter.
I will gladly give up one mile more per tank and keep my starter from wearing out prematurely


1994 Jeep 164k Castrol Synblend 10w30
2014 Camry 40k Castrol Magnatec 0w20
2018 Jeep Cherokee 5k Pennzoil Platinum 5w30
2014 HD Ultra 49k Mobil1 15w50
2012 Rav4 40k Mobil 1 0w20
Re: stop/start oil filtering question [Re: toneydoc] #5043282
03/14/19 08:24 PM
03/14/19 08:24 PM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 11,355
1/2 hr N.E. of Detroit
Triple_Se7en Offline
Triple_Se7en  Offline

Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 11,355
1/2 hr N.E. of Detroit
Originally Posted by toneydoc
I have one of the start/stop engines. I disable that every time I get in the Jeep and go.
I worry more about the starter being constantly used than the oil filter.
I will gladly give up one mile more per tank and keep my starter from wearing out prematurely


Me too! The Default on it should be off, unless we opt to use it. Not the other way around.


19 Hyundai SantaFe 2.4GDI Castrol Edge 5w30 / NAPA Mann-Hummel filter / 6oz Liqui-Moly Treatment
04 Colorado 3.5 Castrol Edge 0W40 Euro & K&N filter
03 Malibu 3.1 QS / Valv Syn 5w30 mix Fram EG filter
Re: stop/start oil filtering question [Re: benjy] #5043391
03/14/19 11:00 PM
03/14/19 11:00 PM
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 420
montreal ,canada
madeej11 Offline
madeej11  Offline

Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 420
montreal ,canada
Originally Posted by benjy
stop-start stinks IMO + beside xtra starter + battery issues i read where new "special" bearing material was developed to help with the xtra wear incurred from many restarts. i would only buy a new vehicle with stop-start if it could be easily turned off, + only one with BOTH port + direct injection!

What does your opinion have to do with OP's question? More or less another one of your rants. You never addressed the question unless + + + + + +........ is an answer. What's with that anyway?

Re: stop/start oil filtering question [Re: 1978elcamino] #5043392
03/14/19 11:08 PM
03/14/19 11:08 PM
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 10,013
...
PimTac Offline
PimTac  Offline

Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 10,013
...
The modern start stop systems are not totally reliant on the starter to restart the engine. There is also some pre-oiling happening just prior to the restart.


2017 Mazda CX5
Havoline Pro DS 0w20
Roki OEM filter.
Re: stop/start oil filtering question [Re: PimTac] #5043432
03/15/19 12:12 AM
03/15/19 12:12 AM
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 420
montreal ,canada
madeej11 Offline
madeej11  Offline

Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 420
montreal ,canada
Originally Posted by PimTac
The modern start stop systems are not totally reliant on the starter to restart the engine. There is also some pre-oiling happening just prior to the restart.


What do you mean by pre-oiling happening Pim?

Re: stop/start oil filtering question [Re: 1978elcamino] #5043433
03/15/19 12:13 AM
03/15/19 12:13 AM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,674
Oklahoma City
Reddy45 Offline
Reddy45  Offline

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,674
Oklahoma City
I was in Cali recently and while walking around noticed that a LOT of the start stop equipped engines were euro luxury cars. I'd just be walking down the street and then you hear that distinctive quick turnover sound and off they went. The 're-start' is definitely quicker than a typical crank over first thing in the morning.

Will be curious how those same cars fare after 100k miles and on the 2nd or 3rd owners.

Re: stop/start oil filtering question [Re: 1978elcamino] #5043464
03/15/19 03:28 AM
03/15/19 03:28 AM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 959
WA
OilUzer Offline
OilUzer  Offline

Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 959
WA
Is stop/start cousin of CAFE?

Re: stop/start oil filtering question [Re: 1978elcamino] #5043487
03/15/19 05:18 AM
03/15/19 05:18 AM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 32,479
NY
demarpaint Offline
demarpaint  Offline

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 32,479
NY
Thanks for the replies regarding the filter in stop/start engines.


God Bless Our Troops

Re: stop/start oil filtering question [Re: PimTac] #5043495
03/15/19 05:29 AM
03/15/19 05:29 AM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 8,028
Indianapolis, IN
dnewton3 Offline
Global Moderator
dnewton3  Offline
Global Moderator

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 8,028
Indianapolis, IN
Originally Posted by PimTac
The modern start stop systems are not totally reliant on the starter to restart the engine. There is also some pre-oiling happening just prior to the restart.



How is that happening? Most of the engines are just existing designs with the electronics of s/s added to them. I don't know of any engine that has a pre-pressure device on it. These engines typically are just using the "normal" oil pump.

Remember the age-old addage that "75% of engine wear happens at start up"? Frankly, I never bought into that. But it was prevalent for a long time. To many topics therein to just believe such a blanket statement. Measured how? Oil at what temp? Engine at what temp? Duration of use between starts? Duration of cool-down between starts? Etc ...

It would be interesting to see if we can get enough data for a good study in terms of wear control with this s/s technology. Pick some engines that have s/s, and have some folks use the feature, where others defeat/delete the feature. Run a lot of UOAs and get the macro data.


The act of preventative maintenance, in and of itself, is FAR MORE important than brand/grade/base choices among lubes and filters.
- under maintaining something is akin to abuse/neglect; that can kill equipment by shortening the lifespan
- over maintaining something has never been proven to be anything but a waste of time and money
Re: stop/start oil filtering question [Re: dnewton3] #5043502
03/15/19 05:44 AM
03/15/19 05:44 AM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 32,479
NY
demarpaint Offline
demarpaint  Offline

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 32,479
NY
Originally Posted by dnewton3

It would be interesting to see if we can get enough data for a good study in terms of wear control with this s/s technology. Pick some engines that have s/s, and have some folks use the feature, where others defeat/delete the feature. Run a lot of UOAs and get the macro data.

That would be very interesting, I for one would love to see it. It would take years to accomplish. Maybe you could make a sticky to start recruiting stop/start owner participants to get the ball rolling?


God Bless Our Troops

Re: stop/start oil filtering question [Re: 1978elcamino] #5043580
03/15/19 08:19 AM
03/15/19 08:19 AM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 656
GoVols
kstanf150 Offline
kstanf150  Offline

Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 656
GoVols
Only thing that’s really taking place with start stop systems is the life of the starter is being cut in half
Every manufacture that’s doing this crazy crap now is gonna sell a boat load of starters in a few years

Re: stop/start oil filtering question [Re: 1978elcamino] #5043637
03/15/19 09:43 AM
03/15/19 09:43 AM
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 225
So Cal
Bill_W Offline
Bill_W  Offline

Joined: May 2009
Posts: 225
So Cal
As far as the filter goes that may not be as an issue as other things. per Wiki...
Concerns
The US National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) raised questions about non-hybrid Honda vehicles equipped with the company's 'Idle Stop' transmissions in February 2001 due to concerns over the "sudden lurching forward of a vehicle in an automatic restart" – rather than the "gradual creeping forward found in current transmission designs." [40][41]

Hybrid/electric assist vehicles experience almost no delay in power from a stop, due to the instant availability of power from the traction battery to the electric motor(s). Gasoline/microhybrids on the other hand generally experience slight delays (albeit fractions of a second).

Many people[who?] think that long-term use may induce additional wear due to lack of oil lubrication. For the crankshaft bearing half shells and the big end bearings this can translate into frequent high-speed rotary movement before a hydrodynamic film is established. During this phase of boundary lubrication, metal-to-metal contact can occur between the crankshaft surface and the bearing's sliding surface. This was not an issue while the number of engine restarts totaled at what was generally understood to be a normal magnitude. However, in a vehicle with start-stop system this effect can necessitate new technological solutions to avoid premature bearing wear, depending on the driving cycle. Consequently, future engines for start-stop applications need to be designed for 250,000 to 300,000 starts. Traditional bearing shells with aluminum or copper lining show severe wear after only 100,000 cycles. In a start stop system the short stop times keep the engine and oil warm, retaining lubrication.[42] Some implementations do not use a starter motor[citation needed], eliminating concerns of starter motor wear. Mazda i-stop used in their Mazda3/Axela line (in Europe and JDM) uses combustion to assist the starter motor by sensing the position of the piston in the cylinder. They claim quieter and quicker engine restart within 0.35 seconds.[43]

Start-stop systems are heavily reliant on the battery. Testing indicates that AGM batteries diminish in their ability to support start-stop functionality over time. [1]. While alternatives exist (NiZn, Lithium-Ion, supercapacitors,[44] PbC), virtually all automakers continue to use conventional AGM lead acid batteries.

Some car makers such as Suzuki have one lithium-ion battery inside the car.[35]


Slick
Re: stop/start oil filtering question [Re: 1978elcamino] #5043685
03/15/19 10:33 AM
03/15/19 10:33 AM
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 10,013
...
PimTac Offline
PimTac  Offline

Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 10,013
...
I thought I had read about the pre-oiling here but I may be wrong.

Here is Mazda’s start/stop process.

https://www.mazda.com/en/innovation/technology/env/i-stop/


2017 Mazda CX5
Havoline Pro DS 0w20
Roki OEM filter.
Re: stop/start oil filtering question [Re: dnewton3] #5043791
03/15/19 12:36 PM
03/15/19 12:36 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 5,365
California
nthach Offline
nthach  Offline

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 5,365
California
Originally Posted by dnewton3

How is that happening? Most of the engines are just existing designs with the electronics of s/s added to them. I don't know of any engine that has a pre-pressure device on it. These engines typically are just using the "normal" oil pump.

AFAIK, start-stop uses PMGR starters, AGM or EFB batteries and a few control algorithms to operate. No pre-oiling is provided. There is a transmission difference in some systems. ZF does have a Hydraulic Impulse Module to allow the transmission to engage into D immediately. It's more or less an accumulator in the transmission's hydraulic circuit.

Re: stop/start oil filtering question [Re: dnewton3] #5043822
03/15/19 01:06 PM
03/15/19 01:06 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 4,931
SF Bay Area
y_p_w Offline
y_p_w  Offline

Joined: May 2005
Posts: 4,931
SF Bay Area
Originally Posted by dnewton3
Remember the age-old addage that "75% of engine wear happens at start up"? Frankly, I never bought into that. But it was prevalent for a long time. To many topics therein to just believe such a blanket statement. Measured how? Oil at what temp? Engine at what temp? Duration of use between starts? Duration of cool-down between starts? Etc ...

If the engine is warm and there's a good layer of oil I doubt it makes a difference. It would be cold starts that would be the most stressful. If the engine/oil is hot then it should come up to pressure almost immediately, plus the residual oil film. I can look at the oil through a filler cap, and even an hour after the engine has been shut off I can see the oil coating every single part of the engine that would be exposed to oil.

I was thinking maybe it could stress the antiwear additives, but not necessarily if there's a good film of oil stuck to the engine parts.

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