Will those stand up to full load 10mm ammo like the larger pistols i.e. the Star Megastar?
Has the 40 S@W disappeared?
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Originally Posted by billt460
Originally Posted by hatt
The .40 fits in smaller guns than 10mm. It's apples and oranges.
Not really. Today you can get the 10 MM in Commander size 1911's, and even in the Mini Glock models, (Glock 29).
None of those guns are 9mm frames. .40 fits in 9mm frames, 10mm doesn't. You can also fit a 10mm in a deagle while we're at it.
Originally Posted by hatt
The .40 fits in smaller guns than 10mm. It's apples and oranges.
Not really. Today you can get the 10 MM in Commander size 1911's, and even in the Mini Glock models, (Glock 29).
None of those guns are 9mm frames. .40 fits in 9mm frames, 10mm doesn't. You can also fit a 10mm in a deagle while we're at it.
Originally Posted by hatt
None of those guns are 9mm frames. .40 fits in 9mm frames, 10mm doesn't. You can also fit a 10mm in a deagle while we're at it.
True. But it really doesn't mean much either way. It's popularity has been going downhill for a while now. The reason is because it was a solution to a non existent problem, regardless of what frame they built it on. But in the 90's it was Smith & Wesson's biggest money maker. To help keep all this better in focus, this is a Cliff Notes version of the rise and fall of the .40 S&W:
1.) The FBI Miami shootout occurred on April 11, 1986. Resulting in 2 FBI Agents killed, and 5 others wounded.
2.) In order to improve it's weaponry, the FBI quickly made the change to the then new 10 MM Auto. Along with the large framed, heavy S&W Model 1006 auto pistols that fired it.
3.) They quickly discovered that several agents, (in particular women agents), could not handle the gun well, and several were having difficulty qualifying with it because of it's size, weight, and recoil.
4.) The FBI then went to Federal, and asked them to produce a reduced power load to help cut recoil, and in the process increase control. Federal then introduced the lower powered, "FBI 10 MM Load". By doing so the FBI, along with Federal, created the worst of everything. An underpowered load in too big and heavy of a pistol.
5.) While all of this was going on, Smith & Wesson was sitting on the sidelines, watching all of it. And they came up with a brilliant, "$$ solution $$". They discovered they could shorten the 10 MM case by .100, and call it the .40 S&W. This round gave better paper ballistics then a 9 MM at the time, and could be built on existing 9 MM frame pistols. It was also very easy for police and law enforcement agents to control.
6.) Everyone and their brother jumped on the bandwagon, and started producing and selling .40 S&W pistols. And many in law enforcement and the civilian market thought it was the best thing to come along since Monday Night Football, and 3 men in the booth. Sales took off.
7.) While all of this was taking place in the 90's and well into the new millennium, modern self defense pistol ammunition was improving drastically across the board. With better, more positively expanding bullets, that improved the 9 MM's performance to much higher levels. With less recoil and wear than what the .40 S&W offered. Any minor "advantage" of the .40 S&W was quickly negated by vastly improved 9 MM ammunition.
8.) The result of all of this was the .40 S&W slowly fell from grace, while the 9 MM once again began to rise back as the premier caliber for law enforcement.
9.) The final nail in the .40 S&W coffin was when the FBI came full circle, and made the decision to change back to the 9 MM in 2015. Pretty much admitting in the process the .40 S&W did not produce the results they had originally hoped for.
It's not that the .40 S&W was a "bad" cartridge. It's not. Or that there was anything "wrong" with it per say. There isn't. It just was a solution to a non existent problem. Or perhaps more accurately, a solution to a problem the FBI created for themselves. But that Smith & Wesson was able to brilliantly capitalize on from a financial standpoint..... At least for a while.
None of those guns are 9mm frames. .40 fits in 9mm frames, 10mm doesn't. You can also fit a 10mm in a deagle while we're at it.
True. But it really doesn't mean much either way. It's popularity has been going downhill for a while now. The reason is because it was a solution to a non existent problem, regardless of what frame they built it on. But in the 90's it was Smith & Wesson's biggest money maker. To help keep all this better in focus, this is a Cliff Notes version of the rise and fall of the .40 S&W:
1.) The FBI Miami shootout occurred on April 11, 1986. Resulting in 2 FBI Agents killed, and 5 others wounded.
2.) In order to improve it's weaponry, the FBI quickly made the change to the then new 10 MM Auto. Along with the large framed, heavy S&W Model 1006 auto pistols that fired it.
3.) They quickly discovered that several agents, (in particular women agents), could not handle the gun well, and several were having difficulty qualifying with it because of it's size, weight, and recoil.
4.) The FBI then went to Federal, and asked them to produce a reduced power load to help cut recoil, and in the process increase control. Federal then introduced the lower powered, "FBI 10 MM Load". By doing so the FBI, along with Federal, created the worst of everything. An underpowered load in too big and heavy of a pistol.
5.) While all of this was going on, Smith & Wesson was sitting on the sidelines, watching all of it. And they came up with a brilliant, "$$ solution $$". They discovered they could shorten the 10 MM case by .100, and call it the .40 S&W. This round gave better paper ballistics then a 9 MM at the time, and could be built on existing 9 MM frame pistols. It was also very easy for police and law enforcement agents to control.
6.) Everyone and their brother jumped on the bandwagon, and started producing and selling .40 S&W pistols. And many in law enforcement and the civilian market thought it was the best thing to come along since Monday Night Football, and 3 men in the booth. Sales took off.
7.) While all of this was taking place in the 90's and well into the new millennium, modern self defense pistol ammunition was improving drastically across the board. With better, more positively expanding bullets, that improved the 9 MM's performance to much higher levels. With less recoil and wear than what the .40 S&W offered. Any minor "advantage" of the .40 S&W was quickly negated by vastly improved 9 MM ammunition.
8.) The result of all of this was the .40 S&W slowly fell from grace, while the 9 MM once again began to rise back as the premier caliber for law enforcement.
9.) The final nail in the .40 S&W coffin was when the FBI came full circle, and made the decision to change back to the 9 MM in 2015. Pretty much admitting in the process the .40 S&W did not produce the results they had originally hoped for.
It's not that the .40 S&W was a "bad" cartridge. It's not. Or that there was anything "wrong" with it per say. There isn't. It just was a solution to a non existent problem. Or perhaps more accurately, a solution to a problem the FBI created for themselves. But that Smith & Wesson was able to brilliantly capitalize on from a financial standpoint..... At least for a while.
Isn't part of bullet point 9 above (pun intended) making things easier for all agents to improve weapons handling still, noting the ballistic effects of modern 9mm defensive ammo?
Also part of bullet point 3 above wasn't the rapid degredation / short service life of some models of 10mm pistols with full power ammo a factor?
Also part of bullet point 3 above wasn't the rapid degredation / short service life of some models of 10mm pistols with full power ammo a factor?
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Originally Posted by Nyogtha
Isn't part of bullet point 9 above (pun intended) making things easier for all agents to improve weapons handling still, noting the ballistic effects of modern 9mm defensive ammo?
Also part of bullet point 3 above wasn't the rapid degredation / short service life of some models of 10mm pistols with full power ammo a factor?
Both correct. Although involving the FBI, they rarely if ever used full power loads. In fact, one could lay the ballistic downloading of the 10 MM at the FBI's doorstep. As they were the first one's to request it.... See "Bullet Point 4".
Isn't part of bullet point 9 above (pun intended) making things easier for all agents to improve weapons handling still, noting the ballistic effects of modern 9mm defensive ammo?
Also part of bullet point 3 above wasn't the rapid degredation / short service life of some models of 10mm pistols with full power ammo a factor?
Both correct. Although involving the FBI, they rarely if ever used full power loads. In fact, one could lay the ballistic downloading of the 10 MM at the FBI's doorstep. As they were the first one's to request it.... See "Bullet Point 4".
I was talking to a Pawn shop owner the other day about this topic. He had to laugh because he said people were bringing in 9 mm handguns when the .40 came out and he said he would buy the 9 mms but tell them he couldn't give them anything for the 9 mms because the .40 was so popular.
Now he has people coming in wanting to sell or trade their .40 for a 9 mm and he tells them he can't give them much because nobody is buying .40's. Flavor of the month.
Said the same thing about .380's. Couldn't move them now he can't keep them on the shelf. Funny how gun people move in herds and go with trends like that.
Like the Glock people trading each Generation in for the next, like trading cards or model cars. They are all the same gun.
Now he has people coming in wanting to sell or trade their .40 for a 9 mm and he tells them he can't give them much because nobody is buying .40's. Flavor of the month.
Said the same thing about .380's. Couldn't move them now he can't keep them on the shelf. Funny how gun people move in herds and go with trends like that.
Like the Glock people trading each Generation in for the next, like trading cards or model cars. They are all the same gun.
Triple_Se7en
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(Off-topic here a-bit)
.380s popularity soared because of conceal-carry laws became easy-to-get and micro .380s fit inside your front pocket without bulging.
I can put one IWB each hip - two in each front pocket and one IWB backside and no one will know I'm carrying one handgun, let-alone 5.
There's only one 9mm that comes close to micro size-hide and that's the Kahr CM9. I may own one soon. I already have a Kahr CT45. It's slim and light....conceals pretty well on hip or backside, despite the 4" barrel and long grip. I liked it over any 1911 that's thicker, longer, much heavier. Kahr makes a smaller 45 also..... CW45. I needed the longer barrel for all my treks thru the Huron National Forest.
40s are no fun to shoot, unless that gun is heavy. No thanks to high recoil or heaviness. Personally,I would never own a bulky revolver either.
.380s popularity soared because of conceal-carry laws became easy-to-get and micro .380s fit inside your front pocket without bulging.
I can put one IWB each hip - two in each front pocket and one IWB backside and no one will know I'm carrying one handgun, let-alone 5.
There's only one 9mm that comes close to micro size-hide and that's the Kahr CM9. I may own one soon. I already have a Kahr CT45. It's slim and light....conceals pretty well on hip or backside, despite the 4" barrel and long grip. I liked it over any 1911 that's thicker, longer, much heavier. Kahr makes a smaller 45 also..... CW45. I needed the longer barrel for all my treks thru the Huron National Forest.
40s are no fun to shoot, unless that gun is heavy. No thanks to high recoil or heaviness. Personally,I would never own a bulky revolver either.
Originally Posted by Panzerman
I was talking to a Pawn shop owner the other day about this topic. He had to laugh because he said people were bringing in 9 mm handguns when the .40 came out and he said he would buy the 9 mms but tell them he couldn't give them anything for the 9 mms because the .40 was so popular.
Now he has people coming in wanting to sell or trade their .40 for a 9 mm and he tells them he can't give them much because nobody is buying .40's. Flavor of the month.
Said the same thing about .380's. Couldn't move them now he can't keep them on the shelf. Funny how gun people move in herds and go with trends like that.
Like the Glock people trading each Generation in for the next, like trading cards or model cars. They are all the same gun.
It's almost funny how the gun industry has evolved into this. It was the same thing when the short fat Magnum rifle cartridges hit the market in the 80's and 90's. You had the Winchester WSM's, (Winchester Short Magnum's), and WSSM's, (Winchester Super Short Magnums). And the Remington SAUM's, (Short Action Ultra Magnum's). None of them did anything better than the well established Magnum cartridges did that have been around for decades, like the .300 Winchester and .300 Weatherby Magnums.
But they were the flavor of the month. And all but overnight it became a sin to own a rifle chambered for a cartridge with a belt on it. I remember reading articles saying how the long action belted Magnum's would be obsolete in 10 years, because the short fat wonders were taking over. Instead they have become all but obsolete. Try finding ammo or brass for any of the Remington SAUM's. Guns chambered in all the short fat wonders are all heavily discounted because no one wants them. If you want to trade one in they will give you practically nothing for it. All the ballistic jargon about short powder columns creating better accuracy and everything else, turned out to be just more sales malarkey the gun buying public bought into at the time. Again, much like the .40 S&W, they're not "bad" cartridges. They just fall into that magical category of more solutions to more non existent problems. An answer searching for a question.
Kind of like women's shoes. I remember when women were all throwing out their high heels in the 60's and 70's for those blocky, clunky heels that were all the rage. Now women wouldn't be caught dead in a pair of them. High heels are back in style, and the women are once again lining up to buy them. When they should have hung on to them in the first place.
I was talking to a Pawn shop owner the other day about this topic. He had to laugh because he said people were bringing in 9 mm handguns when the .40 came out and he said he would buy the 9 mms but tell them he couldn't give them anything for the 9 mms because the .40 was so popular.
Now he has people coming in wanting to sell or trade their .40 for a 9 mm and he tells them he can't give them much because nobody is buying .40's. Flavor of the month.
Said the same thing about .380's. Couldn't move them now he can't keep them on the shelf. Funny how gun people move in herds and go with trends like that.
Like the Glock people trading each Generation in for the next, like trading cards or model cars. They are all the same gun.
It's almost funny how the gun industry has evolved into this. It was the same thing when the short fat Magnum rifle cartridges hit the market in the 80's and 90's. You had the Winchester WSM's, (Winchester Short Magnum's), and WSSM's, (Winchester Super Short Magnums). And the Remington SAUM's, (Short Action Ultra Magnum's). None of them did anything better than the well established Magnum cartridges did that have been around for decades, like the .300 Winchester and .300 Weatherby Magnums.
But they were the flavor of the month. And all but overnight it became a sin to own a rifle chambered for a cartridge with a belt on it. I remember reading articles saying how the long action belted Magnum's would be obsolete in 10 years, because the short fat wonders were taking over. Instead they have become all but obsolete. Try finding ammo or brass for any of the Remington SAUM's. Guns chambered in all the short fat wonders are all heavily discounted because no one wants them. If you want to trade one in they will give you practically nothing for it. All the ballistic jargon about short powder columns creating better accuracy and everything else, turned out to be just more sales malarkey the gun buying public bought into at the time. Again, much like the .40 S&W, they're not "bad" cartridges. They just fall into that magical category of more solutions to more non existent problems. An answer searching for a question.
Kind of like women's shoes. I remember when women were all throwing out their high heels in the 60's and 70's for those blocky, clunky heels that were all the rage. Now women wouldn't be caught dead in a pair of them. High heels are back in style, and the women are once again lining up to buy them. When they should have hung on to them in the first place.
Triple_Se7en
$50 Site Donor 2024
Bill
The women that wore those high heels in the 60-70s are likely too physically unfit and otherwise too aged, to consider walking in those things again... now aged in their 60s-70s and even 80 years old now. So many have probably gained 50lbs and developed corns, warts & bunions.
Besides, if women feet change like men's often do as we age, I wore 10-1/2 shoes in the 60s & 70s and now wear a size 12 at age 67. So I doubt most women could still wear those high heels, even if they didn't gain much weight in the past 45-50 years and don;t currently have bunions, corms or planter warts.
The women that wore those high heels in the 60-70s are likely too physically unfit and otherwise too aged, to consider walking in those things again... now aged in their 60s-70s and even 80 years old now. So many have probably gained 50lbs and developed corns, warts & bunions.
Besides, if women feet change like men's often do as we age, I wore 10-1/2 shoes in the 60s & 70s and now wear a size 12 at age 67. So I doubt most women could still wear those high heels, even if they didn't gain much weight in the past 45-50 years and don;t currently have bunions, corms or planter warts.
Originally Posted by billt460
Panzerman said:Kind of like women's shoes. I remember when women were all throwing out their high heels in the 60's and 70's for those blocky, clunky heels that were all the rage. Now women wouldn't be caught dead in a pair of them. High heels are back in style, and the women are once again lining up to buy them. When they should have hung on to them in the first place.
Nice to know we have an expert in womans shoes sales on this board.
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They should have given them to their daughters instead of the garbage men.
How did we go from guns to women's shoes. That's scary.
Originally Posted by Panzerman
How did we go from guns to women's shoes. That's scary.
The nexus being that both can be subjectively sexy?
How did we go from guns to women's shoes. That's scary.
The nexus being that both can be subjectively sexy?
I well remember but was never caught up in the rifle "magnumitis" viral epidemic. Just this year I bought my first magnum rifle, a .264 Win Mag Interarms Mark X with the Zastava Mauser action, in anticipation of getting an antelope hunt some time in 2019. I don't want much less need anything that kicks harder than a .30-06 these days.
I enjoy my vintage all steel .40S&W pistols, the Fantastic Plastic never held appeal for my cranium or hand. However, the Taurus PT709 was found to be a perfect fit for my wife, so no complaints from me.
I enjoy my vintage all steel .40S&W pistols, the Fantastic Plastic never held appeal for my cranium or hand. However, the Taurus PT709 was found to be a perfect fit for my wife, so no complaints from me.
The .264 is a great round. It never achieved the popularity it deserved.
Originally Posted by billt460
The .264 is a great round. It never achieved the popularity it deserved.
The short barreled ones weren't worth a thinkers darm they were essentially demagnumntized. My Uncle had a pre 70 Model 70 and now I have it a great gun.
The .264 is a great round. It never achieved the popularity it deserved.
The short barreled ones weren't worth a thinkers darm they were essentially demagnumntized. My Uncle had a pre 70 Model 70 and now I have it a great gun.
Mine is 26" barrel with muzzle brake.
Yes they do! 100 rounds monthly through my Glock 27.
Still a fan of 40 and loving the deals available right now. I have carried 40s for duty use since 1993 and have never felt under gunned with one. It's popularity has certainly passed it's peak, but it remains in the top 5 for ammo sales. There are so many out there it will be available for many decades.
During the ammo crisis a few years back I could still get 40 when 9mm and 380 were unobtanium.
During the ammo crisis a few years back I could still get 40 when 9mm and 380 were unobtanium.
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