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Carbon-cleaning Valvoline Premium Restore #4778351
06/05/18 04:29 PM
06/05/18 04:29 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,966
Fredericksburg, VA
JAG Offline OP
JAG  Offline OP
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,966
Fredericksburg, VA
I stumbled on the patent for it, which is very interesting and informative. Esters are what performs the cleaning, and in some example formulations, alkylated naphthalene was also added. Alkylated naphthalene is between typical esters and Groups II-IV in terms of polarity. They aimed for an aniline point of roughly 60C, which is very low for a motor oil. Lower aniline point indicates higher polarity.

This oil was mostly developed for cleaning carbon from pistons/rings in heavy duty diesel engines but cleaning of gasoline engines was also mentioned. The patent states what some of here have said: it is common for a decent oil to keep an engine clean if OCI is appropriate, but most oils are not good at cleaning engines that are not clean. If you can stomach the sticker shock of this oil (~$72/gallon), go for it and let us know how all it cleans. Below are excerpts from the patent, and I’m not putting it a quote because that narrows the width and the text is long.

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2017/0029734.html
Here are 4 example formulation with percentages for each ingredient, and the viscosities.



“There are three types of deposits which can form on pistons and rings: sludge, varnish and hard carbon. Hard carbon is the most difficult to remove. Over a period of time, carbon deposits can form in certain internal combustion engines, particularly on the piston lands, and in the grooves between the rings and the piston. These carbon deposits frequently manifest themselves by increased oil consumption. Carbon deposit can cause the piston rings to stick, which prevents them from forming a proper seal which allows oil into the combustion chamber and allows the combustion products into the oil. Carbon deposits between the rings and grooves and on the lands can cause irreversible damage to the engine.

Typical lubricants used in internal combustion engines are designed to retard deposit formation but not to remove the carbon buildup that has accumulated over time. This is especially relevant in modern internal combustion engines where additional performance demands have increased piston temperatures.

Further, lubricants for internal combustion engines must be compatible with elastomers such as seals in the engine, have acceptable corrosion resistance, be adequate in cleaning the engine and not exhibit excessive oil consumption. In order to be used in diesel engines the formulated lubricant must have enough detergency and dispersancy to pass the multiple engine tests required for the particular manufacturer's specification and/or the requirements of the specification of the American Petroleum Institute “C” or “F” category for diesel engine oils or likewise the ACEA (European Automobile Manufacturers Association) diesel categories. Yet the ash containing components necessary to pass these demanding specifications typically exacerbate deposits. Thus although it is possible to produce an engine oil with a low tendency to form deposits using conventional high aniline point base oils (e.g. some oils used in natural gas engines) it will typically not pass specifications for use with diesel engines. Furthermore, such an oil outside the range of solvency proscribed herein does not have the effect of cleaning and freeing piston rings thereby reducing oil consumption or preventing loss of oil consumption.

SUMMARY OF THE INVENTION
The present invention is premised on the realization that a lubricant formulation can act to prevent and/or remove carbon buildup in an internal combustion engine.

In particular, a lubricant formulation formed from a blend of base oils with a defined solvency of the base oil, a volatility below a defined threshold (15% as measured by NOACK), a minimum oxidative stability (above 40 minutes as measured by PDSC) and a base oil viscosity of from about 2 to about 10 cSt can effectively prevent the carbon buildup and remove carbon buildup. The solvency can be measured by various methods, such as, for example, aniline point. Lubricant formulations with a base oil blend having an aniline point of 20-115 and preferably 60, should adequately remove carbon buildup in engines and still exhibit elastomer compatibility.

The base oil formulation is formed by blending Group III and/or Group IV lubricants with higher solvency base oil from Group V in relative amounts to establish the effective solvency, volatility, oxidative stability and base oil viscosity, while remaining compatible with elastomers, providing acceptable corrosion prevention and cleaning of the engine without excessive oil consumption.”

Re: Carbon-cleaning Valvoline Premium Restore [Re: JAG] #4778509
06/05/18 07:52 PM
06/05/18 07:52 PM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 1,336
Winchester, Indiana
SubieRubyRoo Offline
SubieRubyRoo  Offline
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 1,336
Winchester, Indiana
JAG, thanks for the post. Very informative, and definitely seems to support the notion that no commonly available, off-the-shelf engine oils are capable of truly "cleaning". Even Valvoline's own documentation here mentions "This formulation is tailored to be a “solvent” and dissolve the hard carbon from the piston ring grooves and lands," and is something far outside the normal of engine oils.

And by commonly available, I mean something other than $72/gallon oils when things like Kreen are $17/qt and don't take have a drum to fill the sump smile

Re: Carbon-cleaning Valvoline Premium Restore [Re: JAG] #4778514
06/05/18 07:59 PM
06/05/18 07:59 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 30,679
NJ
buster Offline
buster  Offline
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 30,679
NJ
Very informative, thanks JAG.



Re: Carbon-cleaning Valvoline Premium Restore [Re: JAG] #4778545
06/05/18 08:32 PM
06/05/18 08:32 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,966
Fredericksburg, VA
JAG Offline OP
JAG  Offline OP
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,966
Fredericksburg, VA
You’re welcome, Subie and buster. I couldn’t help myself, so I just ordered a gallon. I bought it more for testing and because it’s a novelty, than I did for having a strong need for such a product. I sure had a need for it when I had the varnish-manufacturing 2003 VW GTI 1.8T. It turned top notch oil’s into varnish even with 5k mile OCIs. Despite trying many oils, I never could get the varnish to get cleaned up by the motor oils. It plugged up the PCV system twice, costing me $500 in parts and labor. Partially blocked the oil pickup screen with carbon chunks. The experience of owning that engine is what got me into oils that can stay clean in obnoxious conditions and seeking oils that can actually clean.

I will perform testing on it and report what I find. I couldn’t find a product data sheet or MSDS. If anyone finds one, please post it.

Re: Carbon-cleaning Valvoline Premium Restore [Re: JAG] #4778562
06/05/18 08:53 PM
06/05/18 08:53 PM
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 1,531
Oregon
1JZ_E46 Offline
1JZ_E46  Offline
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 1,531
Oregon
$72 a gallon isn’t bad if it actually works after a single OCI.


2007 X5 4.8i: M1 HM 10W-30
2016 Countryman S: EDGE 0W-30
Re: Carbon-cleaning Valvoline Premium Restore [Re: JAG] #4778573
06/05/18 09:01 PM
06/05/18 09:01 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 25,355
Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Garak Offline
Garak  Offline
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 25,355
Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Yes, I believe there was a thread on this product in the HDEO section. And yes, the price is steep. wink


Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 - Shell ROTELLA T6 Multi-Vehicle 5w-30, NAPA Gold 7356
1984 F-150 4.9L - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515
Re: Carbon-cleaning Valvoline Premium Restore [Re: JAG] #4778583
06/05/18 09:15 PM
06/05/18 09:15 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,016
pa
benjy Offline
benjy  Offline
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,016
pa
in my modified 2001 vw jetta 1.8t ran amsoil 10-30 when it was the real synthetic then redline 10-30 which is still the real deal, 200,000 before trade + still 20" vacuum!!! never no engine issues even boosting to 25 lbs!!!

Re: Carbon-cleaning Valvoline Premium Restore [Re: JAG] #4778608
06/05/18 09:45 PM
06/05/18 09:45 PM
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 328
ohio
cven Offline
cven  Offline
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 328
ohio
Good find. I was using Yamaha Ringfree in the bike but my local dealer now sells a "motorcycle medic" in small bottles that I think is the same thing. I wonder if this stuff is similar to the Yamaha products? The price is about the same.

Re: Carbon-cleaning Valvoline Premium Restore [Re: JAG] #4778640
06/05/18 10:18 PM
06/05/18 10:18 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,966
Fredericksburg, VA
JAG Offline OP
JAG  Offline OP
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,966
Fredericksburg, VA
I have big respect for Amsoil and Red Line oils, benjy.

Some interesting things about the oil 17 examples in the patent:
15 out of 17 use no VIIs, and those that do have 3% treat rate.
2 out of 17 use oil-soluble polyalkylene glycol (OSP) instead of ester.
Most of them were comprised of 40 to 50% ester. Of the base oils portion alone, that is 50 to 62%.
NOACK volatility is shown for 8 of them, ranging from 4.6 to 7.9%.
Performance in TEOST (33C??) and PDSC Oxidation tests varied considerably.
CCV and MRV viscosities varies considerably amongst the first 4 examples, and the temps, they were tested at indicate they are 10W-x viscosity grade. That and the viscosities at 100C put them in the 10W-30 grade, assuming their HTHS viscosities exceed 2.9 cP, which I am certain is true. The product I bought is 10W-30 viscosity grade.

I suspect that formulation examples 1, 2, or 4 is what the Valvoline formulators preferred over the other ones. I’d love to know what they ended up putting in the oil they are selling.

Re: Carbon-cleaning Valvoline Premium Restore [Re: JAG] #4778653
06/05/18 10:30 PM
06/05/18 10:30 PM
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,351
toronto
PeterPolyol Offline
PeterPolyol  Offline
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,351
toronto
Originally Posted By: JAG
I sure had a need for it when I had the varnish-manufacturing 2003 VW GTI 1.8T. It turned top notch oil’s into varnish even with 5k mile OCIs.

Over the years, I've noticed a trend of prominent varnish in Euro engines commonly spec'ed for PAO based synthetic oils. It always baffled me how the engines running the strictest oil specs could so often have such characteristic varnishing. Always chalked it up to abuse/neglect (even though those cars make no secret about a required oil change). Then later came to learn from TomNJ that non-polar based oils, particularly with PAOs, have no innate ability to keep carbon and degradation products suspended, in turn depositing them on engine surfaces. Issue seemed to be much worse in the older generations/chemistries. The problem seems to be less pronounced these days.

JAG, awesome job procuring a sample of the product for testing. thumbsup

Re: Carbon-cleaning Valvoline Premium Restore [Re: JAG] #4778667
06/05/18 10:44 PM
06/05/18 10:44 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 577
Canada
nap Online content
nap  Online Content
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 577
Canada
Gents, is there anywhere some nice, exhaustive table highlighting PAO advantages vs disadvantages when used as an engine oil? As at this point (i.e. with contemporary engines) I fear it’s not such a great ingredient as it was 10 years ago.

Re: Carbon-cleaning Valvoline Premium Restore [Re: JAG] #4778690
06/05/18 11:17 PM
06/05/18 11:17 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,966
Fredericksburg, VA
JAG Offline OP
JAG  Offline OP
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,966
Fredericksburg, VA
Peter, yeah, I hear you. I was baffled by the varnish, using oils that met some of the strictest oil specs. My mother had a 1998 BMW (lovely car, BTW) that had a lot of red varnish inside the engine. It used BMW oil, then Mobil 1.

nap, my go-to source for info. is often Leslie Rudnick’s book. It should tell you plenty about the pros and cons of PAOs. https://books.google.com/books?id=9YXRBQ...ges&f=false
By themselves, without esters or alkylated napthalene, I’m not a big fan of them due to how non-polar they are. With one or both of those other oils, I really like them. I wouldn’t want just ester and additives or alkylated napthalene and additives. They all have strengths and weaknesses. A proper blend balances out the pros and cons.

I found a different hosting site for the patent which shows the graphs. I see that the formulation example they did the oil consumption testing was Example 4, so I strongly think that is the one they went with. That one had a lovely 50% Priolube 1973 POE, Synnestic 12 alkylated napthalene, and the rest being PAO and additives.
https://patents.google.com/patent/US20170029734A1/en

Re: Carbon-cleaning Valvoline Premium Restore [Re: PeterPolyol] #4778692
06/05/18 11:25 PM
06/05/18 11:25 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 40,851
'Stralia
Shannow Offline
Shannow  Offline
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 40,851
'Stralia
Originally Posted By: PeterPolyol
Originally Posted By: JAG
I sure had a need for it when I had the varnish-manufacturing 2003 VW GTI 1.8T. It turned top notch oil’s into varnish even with 5k mile OCIs.

Over the years, I've noticed a trend of prominent varnish in Euro engines commonly spec'ed for PAO based synthetic oils. It always baffled me how the engines running the strictest oil specs could so often have such characteristic varnishing. Always chalked it up to abuse/neglect (even though those cars make no secret about a required oil change). Then later came to learn from TomNJ that non-polar based oils, particularly with PAOs, have no innate ability to keep carbon and degradation products suspended, in turn depositing them on engine surfaces. Issue seemed to be much worse in the older generations/chemistries. The problem seems to be less pronounced these days.

JAG, awesome job procuring a sample of the product for testing. thumbsup


Seconded.

Just another dot point...when Oz started having the GrII turbine oil varnish and sludge issues when the industry moved from GrI without informing or anything...bang, we all had varnish.

The "snake oil" people came out...good snake oil. e.g. Conoco, and their GrIII turbine oils.

Marketted them VERY heavily, but while they could point to great oxidation stability, couldn't address our concerns re polarity.

Re: Carbon-cleaning Valvoline Premium Restore [Re: JAG] #4778712
06/06/18 12:19 AM
06/06/18 12:19 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,966
Fredericksburg, VA
JAG Offline OP
JAG  Offline OP
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,966
Fredericksburg, VA
For comparison to the aniline points of formulation example 4 that has aniline point of 61C, below are the aniline point test results that I had done around year 2005 by member bruce381. They are all very high.

M1 TDT was of CI-4+ formulation. All 3 oils were Mobil 1.

5W-40 TDT (Turbo Diesel Truck): 136 C (276 F)
0W-40: 123 C (254 F)
10W-30 High Mileage: 120 C (248 F)

From the patent, you can see that that Mobil 1 TDT’s aniline point is consistent with having none or very little polar base oils. 0W-40 and 10W-30 High Mileage aniline points are consistent with having a small amount of polar base oils. If it were entirely from an ester like Priolube 1973, out of just the base oil portion of the motor oil, it would be around 10 to 12%. AN is less polar, so it takes more of it to drop the aniline point the same amount as that ester. AN has a poor VI, so that restricts its use to some degree. Anyhow, even 120 C is a far cry from 61 C. The patent states that after the cleanup OCI is done, the oil used subsequently could have an aniline point of 90 C to maintain the cleanliness, implying that it is not sufficient to do a lot of cleaning.

Re: Carbon-cleaning Valvoline Premium Restore [Re: JAG] #4778717
06/06/18 12:27 AM
06/06/18 12:27 AM
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 1,531
Oregon
1JZ_E46 Offline
1JZ_E46  Offline
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 1,531
Oregon
I found this article to be a fascinating read. It really shows the importance that polarity plays in a quality finished product.


2007 X5 4.8i: M1 HM 10W-30
2016 Countryman S: EDGE 0W-30
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