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TALKING MILEAGE STANDARDS WITH AUTOMAKERS... #4754447
05/11/18 06:01 PM
05/11/18 06:01 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,100
WI.
dblshock Offline OP
dblshock  Offline OP
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,100
WI.
Trump talked with the executives from leading auto makers — including the CEOs of General Motors GM, +0.16% and Ford F, -0.18% — about loosening emission and freezing fuel-economy standards. “We’re working on how to build more cars in the United States,” Trump told reporters before the meeting. “We are going to be talking about environmental control, CAFE standards and manufacturing millions of new cars within the United States.”


16 Civic Coupe Touring 38k
640:1 TCW-3 E091
Edge 0/40 XG7317
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06 4Runner SR5 146k
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Re: TALKING MILEAGE STANDARDS WITH AUTOMAKERS... [Re: dblshock] #4754488
05/11/18 06:47 PM
05/11/18 06:47 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 16,356
OH
fdcg27 Offline
fdcg27  Offline
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 16,356
OH
The problem this gives the manufacturers is what they should plan to build.
They're already planning future development based upon sharply higher fuel efficiency standards.
They're now being told that those standards will be relaxed, although whether the incumbent administration can actually do this is an open question, since they'd need to provide the technical backup to make this action last through the inevitable court challenges.
At the end of the day, companies value certainty and the future outlook for CAFE requirements is now less certain.
This is therefore not a positive for GM or Ford.


18 Accord Hybrid FF
17 Forester 18K VME 0W-20
12 Accord LX 96K SSO 0W-20
09 Forester 95K M1HM 10W-30
01 Focus ZX3 118K PP 5W-20
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Re: TALKING MILEAGE STANDARDS WITH AUTOMAKERS... [Re: dblshock] #4754534
05/11/18 07:43 PM
05/11/18 07:43 PM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 46
Canada
honeeagle Offline
honeeagle  Offline
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 46
Canada
We already have their answer - less cars more trucks


Volvo 670 singled smart car 'on deck' towing newmar 5th
Re: TALKING MILEAGE STANDARDS WITH AUTOMAKERS... [Re: dblshock] #4754540
05/11/18 07:48 PM
05/11/18 07:48 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 619
Canada
nap Offline
nap  Offline
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 619
Canada
What I see is polarization within a brand’s lineup. At one end they’re pushing (sub)compacts with puny engines and at the other end pickup trucks and SUVs with humongous engines. The middle segment (pleasant to drive, spacious sedans with decent engines) doesn’t exist anymore except in luxury brands. So people have little choice between unpleasant, underpowered drives and gargantuan SUVs. Guess what they’ll chose. Then everybody complains about “american market has gone SUV”. Maybe they could tweak that CAFE thing to fix this.

Last edited by nap; 05/11/18 07:48 PM.
Re: TALKING MILEAGE STANDARDS WITH AUTOMAKERS... [Re: dblshock] #4754550
05/11/18 07:59 PM
05/11/18 07:59 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 42,482
New Jersey
JHZR2 Offline
JHZR2  Offline
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 42,482
New Jersey
Neither CAFE nor emissions is going to make more vehicles here.

We now have to compete with a wage base of the third world. We ourselves are to blame. To say CAFE is affecting our ability to produce vs UAW wages of likely $35/hr, non unionized wages of what, $25-3/hr... or third world lanorers getting a few dollars at best??

Re: TALKING MILEAGE STANDARDS WITH AUTOMAKERS... [Re: dblshock] #4754551
05/11/18 08:03 PM
05/11/18 08:03 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 7,140
Michigan
A_Harman Offline
A_Harman  Offline
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 7,140
Michigan
One problem with the Obama fuel efficiency standards is that they were initiated by executive action, not by Congress, so they can be rescinded just as easily.
Another problem with the Obama fuel efficiency standards is that it was never explained in the regulations how the CO2 emissions standards could be created to force automakers to meet a 54 mpg fuel economy goal without changing the CAFE standards, which Congress must act to change, and they never did. The EPA basically usurped the power when they issued the finding that CO2 is a gas they have the authority to regulate, even though long-standing emissions laws never regulate it.

What needs to happen is the elimination of California's authority to enact their own emissions standards. Then the automakers won't have to develop cars to meet two sets of emissions standards.

Last edited by A_Harman; 05/11/18 08:11 PM.

1985 Z51 Corvette track car
2002 Camaro Z28 LS1/6-speed
2001 Dodge Ram 2500 diesel
1972 GMC 1500 shortbed project truck
Re: TALKING MILEAGE STANDARDS WITH AUTOMAKERS... [Re: dblshock] #4754554
05/11/18 08:05 PM
05/11/18 08:05 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 619
Canada
nap Offline
nap  Offline
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 619
Canada
Maybe if we could concentrate on making highly appealing vehicles instead of meeting some arbitrary administrative standards....

???

Re: TALKING MILEAGE STANDARDS WITH AUTOMAKERS... [Re: dblshock] #4754565
05/11/18 08:12 PM
05/11/18 08:12 PM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 2,217
VW Fanboy Island
maxdustington Offline
maxdustington  Offline
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 2,217
VW Fanboy Island
V8 muscle cars are going to be cheap again. The 2020s are going to be like the 1960s!


03 Jetta AWP/09A 205k kms
Edge 0W40 + Mann 719/30
Re: TALKING MILEAGE STANDARDS WITH AUTOMAKERS... [Re: nap] #4754581
05/11/18 08:30 PM
05/11/18 08:30 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 42,482
New Jersey
JHZR2 Offline
JHZR2  Offline
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 42,482
New Jersey
Originally Posted By: nap
Maybe if we could concentrate on making highly appealing vehicles instead of meeting some arbitrary administrative standards....

???


And people will poop in their drinking water if it's convenient and cheap.

There's some happy medium between over regulation, power and efficiency.

I don't miss highly stinky,,polluting vehicles, and I'm a 1980s baby... I love old cars, but I can't imagine the stink in the 50s and 60s.

Higher specific power and being more efficient do go hand in hand.

Calling a 50 mpg diesel a "gross polluter", and an 8 mpg SUV a "partial zero" emissions vehicle is ridiculous.

But taking steps backwards from where vehicles are now is also dumb.

Re: TALKING MILEAGE STANDARDS WITH AUTOMAKERS... [Re: dblshock] #4754587
05/11/18 08:34 PM
05/11/18 08:34 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 619
Canada
nap Offline
nap  Offline
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 619
Canada
Fortunately no sane person would accept that one single tire model would be optimal from Alaska to Texas, or they’d mandate some low rolling resistance eco hockey pucks, under the threat of voiding warranties if you use any other type of tire. Like they did with oils. laugh

Re: TALKING MILEAGE STANDARDS WITH AUTOMAKERS... [Re: dblshock] #4754612
05/11/18 08:53 PM
05/11/18 08:53 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 619
Canada
nap Offline
nap  Offline
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 619
Canada
The water example is interesting, because if you look at closely, we can notice that:

- no matter what you do, it will eventually end up in the water
- trying to “fix it” by placing a quota on how much you’re allowed is silly

laugh

Re: TALKING MILEAGE STANDARDS WITH AUTOMAKERS... [Re: fdcg27] #4754613
05/11/18 08:55 PM
05/11/18 08:55 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 26,367
Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Garak Offline
Garak  Offline
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 26,367
Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
The problem this gives the manufacturers is what they should plan to build.

The real problem isn't the fuel economy standards, per se. Getting high fuel economy isn't that difficult. Meeting high fuel economy standards with what North Americans prefer to drive is another matter altogether. wink


Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 - Shell ROTELLA T6 Multi-Vehicle 5w-30, NAPA Gold 7356
1984 F-150 4.9L - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515
Re: TALKING MILEAGE STANDARDS WITH AUTOMAKERS... [Re: A_Harman] #4754691
05/11/18 11:18 PM
05/11/18 11:18 PM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 6,118
Kalifornia Kollective
BrocLuno Offline
BrocLuno  Offline
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 6,118
Kalifornia Kollective
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
One problem with the Obama fuel efficiency standards is that they were initiated by executive action, not by Congress, so they can be rescinded just as easily.
Another problem with the Obama fuel efficiency standards is that it was never explained in the regulations how the CO2 emissions standards could be created to force automakers to meet a 54 mpg fuel economy goal without changing the CAFE standards, which Congress must act to change, and they never did. The EPA basically usurped the power when they issued the finding that CO2 is a gas they have the authority to regulate, even though long-standing emissions laws never regulate it.

What needs to happen is the elimination of California's authority to enact their own emissions standards. Then the automakers won't have to develop cars to meet two sets of emissions standards.


Never happen. Kali is now the 5th biggest economy in the world w/o the rest of the US ... Kali has carbon cap and trade with Canada and other w/o the US. CARB will continue down the road as planned. We have laws and guidelines out to 2050 and beyond already in place.

You'all do what you want, but Kali will go it's own way on emissions. Already have a mandate for 2M electric vehicles per year or something like that by 2020 (or maybe 2025, I can't remember ...). Since we are the biggest market, we get to say what sells here. The OEMs will build for this market. Have since 1975.

If Ford and GM don't wanna play, that's OK, everybody else will smile

Last edited by BrocLuno; 05/11/18 11:20 PM.

Formerly in marine engineering. In an earlier life I owned my own petroleum tank truck, and hauled for the majors and independent's.
Re: TALKING MILEAGE STANDARDS WITH AUTOMAKERS... [Re: Garak] #4754801
05/12/18 06:34 AM
05/12/18 06:34 AM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 16,356
OH
fdcg27 Offline
fdcg27  Offline
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 16,356
OH
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
The problem this gives the manufacturers is what they should plan to build.

The real problem isn't the fuel economy standards, per se. Getting high fuel economy isn't that difficult. Meeting high fuel economy standards with what North Americans prefer to drive is another matter altogether. wink


People will buy what's available. I know that there are those here who'll say that they'll just keep their current vehicles forever, but that isn't a realistic proposition for 99% of those who own and use vehicles.
There is, of course, another way of forcing very rapid and permanent improvements in the fuel efficiency of the national personal use vehicle fleet, one used in Europe for decades.
This solution would offer the virtues of both bringing an almost immediate reduction in the miles driven with thirstier vehicles and would also generate a huge stream of revenue to fund the infrastructure improvements everybody seems to think we need. You wouldn't even have to go to the extremes seen elsewhere to achieve both a more fuel efficient national fleet and an ample revenue stream with which to fund transportation infrastructure. Another fifty cents a gallon would do it.
We'd also hate it a whole lot more than we hate CAFE. While we're all grumbling about the recent increases in fuel prices, we should consider what a bargain those prices would be for drivers in most of the industrialized world.


18 Accord Hybrid FF
17 Forester 18K VME 0W-20
12 Accord LX 96K SSO 0W-20
09 Forester 95K M1HM 10W-30
01 Focus ZX3 118K PP 5W-20
96 Accord LX 104K T5 10W-30
95 318i
Re: TALKING MILEAGE STANDARDS WITH AUTOMAKERS... [Re: BrocLuno] #4754809
05/12/18 06:42 AM
05/12/18 06:42 AM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 6,077
Champlain/Hudson Valley
Kira Offline
Kira  Offline
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 6,077
Champlain/Hudson Valley
When it comes to issues involving politics this one (this thread) is among the most intelligent I've read here.

Stuff needs to get done. Modern engines goes hand-in-hand with efficiency/cleanliness.

Remember, someone will always grouse about something (and often interject politics clumsily).

Goals aren't a bad thing. Neither is cleanliness.

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