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#4754447 - 05/11/18 07:01 PM TALKING MILEAGE STANDARDS WITH AUTOMAKERS...
dblshock Offline


Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 2786
Loc: WI.
Trump talked with the executives from leading auto makers — including the CEOs of General Motors GM, +0.16% and Ford F, -0.18% — about loosening emission and freezing fuel-economy standards. “We’re working on how to build more cars in the United States,” Trump told reporters before the meeting. “We are going to be talking about environmental control, CAFE standards and manufacturing millions of new cars within the United States.”
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#4754488 - 05/11/18 07:47 PM Re: TALKING MILEAGE STANDARDS WITH AUTOMAKERS... [Re: dblshock]
fdcg27 Offline


Registered: 09/25/09
Posts: 15911
Loc: OH
The problem this gives the manufacturers is what they should plan to build.
They're already planning future development based upon sharply higher fuel efficiency standards.
They're now being told that those standards will be relaxed, although whether the incumbent administration can actually do this is an open question, since they'd need to provide the technical backup to make this action last through the inevitable court challenges.
At the end of the day, companies value certainty and the future outlook for CAFE requirements is now less certain.
This is therefore not a positive for GM or Ford.
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#4754534 - 05/11/18 08:43 PM Re: TALKING MILEAGE STANDARDS WITH AUTOMAKERS... [Re: dblshock]
honeeagle Offline


Registered: 12/16/12
Posts: 21
Loc: Canada
We already have their answer - less cars more trucks
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#4754540 - 05/11/18 08:48 PM Re: TALKING MILEAGE STANDARDS WITH AUTOMAKERS... [Re: dblshock]
nap Offline


Registered: 04/27/18
Posts: 555
Loc: Canada
What I see is polarization within a brand’s lineup. At one end they’re pushing (sub)compacts with puny engines and at the other end pickup trucks and SUVs with humongous engines. The middle segment (pleasant to drive, spacious sedans with decent engines) doesn’t exist anymore except in luxury brands. So people have little choice between unpleasant, underpowered drives and gargantuan SUVs. Guess what they’ll chose. Then everybody complains about “american market has gone SUV”. Maybe they could tweak that CAFE thing to fix this.


Edited by nap (05/11/18 08:48 PM)

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#4754550 - 05/11/18 08:59 PM Re: TALKING MILEAGE STANDARDS WITH AUTOMAKERS... [Re: dblshock]
JHZR2 Offline



Registered: 12/14/02
Posts: 41980
Loc: New Jersey
Neither CAFE nor emissions is going to make more vehicles here.

We now have to compete with a wage base of the third world. We ourselves are to blame. To say CAFE is affecting our ability to produce vs UAW wages of likely $35/hr, non unionized wages of what, $25-3/hr... or third world lanorers getting a few dollars at best??

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#4754551 - 05/11/18 09:03 PM Re: TALKING MILEAGE STANDARDS WITH AUTOMAKERS... [Re: dblshock]
A_Harman Offline


Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 6972
Loc: Michigan
One problem with the Obama fuel efficiency standards is that they were initiated by executive action, not by Congress, so they can be rescinded just as easily.
Another problem with the Obama fuel efficiency standards is that it was never explained in the regulations how the CO2 emissions standards could be created to force automakers to meet a 54 mpg fuel economy goal without changing the CAFE standards, which Congress must act to change, and they never did. The EPA basically usurped the power when they issued the finding that CO2 is a gas they have the authority to regulate, even though long-standing emissions laws never regulate it.

What needs to happen is the elimination of California's authority to enact their own emissions standards. Then the automakers won't have to develop cars to meet two sets of emissions standards.


Edited by A_Harman (05/11/18 09:11 PM)
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#4754554 - 05/11/18 09:05 PM Re: TALKING MILEAGE STANDARDS WITH AUTOMAKERS... [Re: dblshock]
nap Offline


Registered: 04/27/18
Posts: 555
Loc: Canada
Maybe if we could concentrate on making highly appealing vehicles instead of meeting some arbitrary administrative standards....

???

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#4754565 - 05/11/18 09:12 PM Re: TALKING MILEAGE STANDARDS WITH AUTOMAKERS... [Re: dblshock]
maxdustington Offline


Registered: 01/21/17
Posts: 1032
Loc: Toronna
V8 muscle cars are going to be cheap again. The 2020s are going to be like the 1960s!
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#4754581 - 05/11/18 09:30 PM Re: TALKING MILEAGE STANDARDS WITH AUTOMAKERS... [Re: nap]
JHZR2 Offline



Registered: 12/14/02
Posts: 41980
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: nap
Maybe if we could concentrate on making highly appealing vehicles instead of meeting some arbitrary administrative standards....

???


And people will poop in their drinking water if it's convenient and cheap.

There's some happy medium between over regulation, power and efficiency.

I don't miss highly stinky,,polluting vehicles, and I'm a 1980s baby... I love old cars, but I can't imagine the stink in the 50s and 60s.

Higher specific power and being more efficient do go hand in hand.

Calling a 50 mpg diesel a "gross polluter", and an 8 mpg SUV a "partial zero" emissions vehicle is ridiculous.

But taking steps backwards from where vehicles are now is also dumb.

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#4754587 - 05/11/18 09:34 PM Re: TALKING MILEAGE STANDARDS WITH AUTOMAKERS... [Re: dblshock]
nap Offline


Registered: 04/27/18
Posts: 555
Loc: Canada
Fortunately no sane person would accept that one single tire model would be optimal from Alaska to Texas, or they’d mandate some low rolling resistance eco hockey pucks, under the threat of voiding warranties if you use any other type of tire. Like they did with oils. laugh

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#4754612 - 05/11/18 09:53 PM Re: TALKING MILEAGE STANDARDS WITH AUTOMAKERS... [Re: dblshock]
nap Offline


Registered: 04/27/18
Posts: 555
Loc: Canada
The water example is interesting, because if you look at closely, we can notice that:

- no matter what you do, it will eventually end up in the water
- trying to “fix it” by placing a quota on how much you’re allowed is silly

laugh

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#4754613 - 05/11/18 09:55 PM Re: TALKING MILEAGE STANDARDS WITH AUTOMAKERS... [Re: fdcg27]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 25026
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
The problem this gives the manufacturers is what they should plan to build.

The real problem isn't the fuel economy standards, per se. Getting high fuel economy isn't that difficult. Meeting high fuel economy standards with what North Americans prefer to drive is another matter altogether. wink
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#4754691 - 05/12/18 12:18 AM Re: TALKING MILEAGE STANDARDS WITH AUTOMAKERS... [Re: A_Harman]
BrocLuno Offline


Registered: 09/06/15
Posts: 5695
Loc: Kalifornia Kollective
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
One problem with the Obama fuel efficiency standards is that they were initiated by executive action, not by Congress, so they can be rescinded just as easily.
Another problem with the Obama fuel efficiency standards is that it was never explained in the regulations how the CO2 emissions standards could be created to force automakers to meet a 54 mpg fuel economy goal without changing the CAFE standards, which Congress must act to change, and they never did. The EPA basically usurped the power when they issued the finding that CO2 is a gas they have the authority to regulate, even though long-standing emissions laws never regulate it.

What needs to happen is the elimination of California's authority to enact their own emissions standards. Then the automakers won't have to develop cars to meet two sets of emissions standards.


Never happen. Kali is now the 5th biggest economy in the world w/o the rest of the US ... Kali has carbon cap and trade with Canada and other w/o the US. CARB will continue down the road as planned. We have laws and guidelines out to 2050 and beyond already in place.

You'all do what you want, but Kali will go it's own way on emissions. Already have a mandate for 2M electric vehicles per year or something like that by 2020 (or maybe 2025, I can't remember ...). Since we are the biggest market, we get to say what sells here. The OEMs will build for this market. Have since 1975.

If Ford and GM don't wanna play, that's OK, everybody else will smile


Edited by BrocLuno (05/12/18 12:20 AM)
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#4754801 - 05/12/18 07:34 AM Re: TALKING MILEAGE STANDARDS WITH AUTOMAKERS... [Re: Garak]
fdcg27 Offline


Registered: 09/25/09
Posts: 15911
Loc: OH
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
The problem this gives the manufacturers is what they should plan to build.

The real problem isn't the fuel economy standards, per se. Getting high fuel economy isn't that difficult. Meeting high fuel economy standards with what North Americans prefer to drive is another matter altogether. wink


People will buy what's available. I know that there are those here who'll say that they'll just keep their current vehicles forever, but that isn't a realistic proposition for 99% of those who own and use vehicles.
There is, of course, another way of forcing very rapid and permanent improvements in the fuel efficiency of the national personal use vehicle fleet, one used in Europe for decades.
This solution would offer the virtues of both bringing an almost immediate reduction in the miles driven with thirstier vehicles and would also generate a huge stream of revenue to fund the infrastructure improvements everybody seems to think we need. You wouldn't even have to go to the extremes seen elsewhere to achieve both a more fuel efficient national fleet and an ample revenue stream with which to fund transportation infrastructure. Another fifty cents a gallon would do it.
We'd also hate it a whole lot more than we hate CAFE. While we're all grumbling about the recent increases in fuel prices, we should consider what a bargain those prices would be for drivers in most of the industrialized world.
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#4754809 - 05/12/18 07:42 AM Re: TALKING MILEAGE STANDARDS WITH AUTOMAKERS... [Re: BrocLuno]
Kira Offline


Registered: 08/19/10
Posts: 5549
Loc: Champlain/Hudson Valley
When it comes to issues involving politics this one (this thread) is among the most intelligent I've read here.

Stuff needs to get done. Modern engines goes hand-in-hand with efficiency/cleanliness.

Remember, someone will always grouse about something (and often interject politics clumsily).

Goals aren't a bad thing. Neither is cleanliness.

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