The split between Ford and Mazda may have exposed the fact that Ford really depended on Mazda for design, development, and testing of sedans.
Did Ford bail on sedans for lack of Mazda help?
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The fact is they just handed a ton of market share to Japan. Its clear to me they have some people at the top that need to be replaced.
You could be right - some of Ford's cars had a lot of Mazda DNA. The 1st-gen Fusion was very similar to a Mazda 626 if I recall correctly. The Ford Escorts of the 90s were based on the Mazda Protege.
I think the entire Duratec family of engines, or at least the 4-bangers, were Mazda-designed.
I think the entire Duratec family of engines, or at least the 4-bangers, were Mazda-designed.
It is a interesting hypothesis. Mazda did a lot for Ford both in design and engineering. If Ford did not fill that vacuum when the split happened then management should be blamed for the lack of planning.
I still believe this story about Ford tells of more serious problems with the company. It’s a very drastic decision.
I still believe this story about Ford tells of more serious problems with the company. It’s a very drastic decision.
Originally Posted By: JohnnyJohnson
The fact is they just handed a ton of market share to Japan. Its clear to me they have some people at the top that need to be replaced.
They might have, but last I knew it was still a shrinking market.
http://www.motortrend.com/news/midsize-sedan-sales-toyota-camry-leads-in-a-declining-segment/
The fact is they just handed a ton of market share to Japan. Its clear to me they have some people at the top that need to be replaced.
They might have, but last I knew it was still a shrinking market.
http://www.motortrend.com/news/midsize-sedan-sales-toyota-camry-leads-in-a-declining-segment/
Wonder how they will survive $4 plus gas with no choices?
People go back and forth on car choices with the gas cost except those that need commercial vehicles.
That is why you have a vast lineup because something usually sells if you have options to weather the storm.
My local Ford dealer is only a Super truck center- meaning they buy tons of them and trade them off to other dealers.
Cars seem to be a non issue there. Been this way for 20 years.
But when you go to buy a truck you have 50 choices per model
People go back and forth on car choices with the gas cost except those that need commercial vehicles.
That is why you have a vast lineup because something usually sells if you have options to weather the storm.
My local Ford dealer is only a Super truck center- meaning they buy tons of them and trade them off to other dealers.
Cars seem to be a non issue there. Been this way for 20 years.
But when you go to buy a truck you have 50 choices per model
They bailed to lack of enough profits related to demand for products.
Historically lost money on cars forever and made it on the SUV and truck end.
With the current SUV offerings that can sell and appeal (even to me) more then a sedan Ford is on right track.
Historically lost money on cars forever and made it on the SUV and truck end.
With the current SUV offerings that can sell and appeal (even to me) more then a sedan Ford is on right track.
Ford is actually BEHIND Fiat-Chrysler as they announced ending cars such as the Dart and 200 more than a year before this announcement by Ford.
Sedans are going away. Faster here in the US than other places, but I believe their market share is dropping in Europe as well.
If Ford wanted a new sedan, there is nothing stopping them from working with Mazda much like Toyota and Subaru worked together for the BRZ/AE-86 or whatever it's called.
It's not a lack of talent. It's lack of desire to put more money into a currently shrinking market segment.
Just like station wagons died out when SUVs became the next big thing. Now that we have CUVs, sedans are going away.
Sedans are going away. Faster here in the US than other places, but I believe their market share is dropping in Europe as well.
If Ford wanted a new sedan, there is nothing stopping them from working with Mazda much like Toyota and Subaru worked together for the BRZ/AE-86 or whatever it's called.
It's not a lack of talent. It's lack of desire to put more money into a currently shrinking market segment.
Just like station wagons died out when SUVs became the next big thing. Now that we have CUVs, sedans are going away.
Originally Posted By: javacontour
Ford is actually BEHIND Fiat-Chrysler as they announced ending cars such as the Dart and 200 more than a year before this announcement by Ford.
Sedans are going away. Faster here in the US than other places, but I believe their market share is dropping in Europe as well.
If Ford wanted a new sedan, there is nothing stopping them from working with Mazda much like Toyota and Subaru worked together for the BRZ/AE-86 or whatever it's called.
It's not a lack of talent. It's lack of desire to put more money into a currently shrinking market segment.
Just like station wagons died out when SUVs became the next big thing. Now that we have CUVs, sedans are going away.
The relationship between Ford and Mazda is dead. As of spring 2017, all connections were severed. Toyota has taken Ford’s place and that will expand over time.
Ford is actually BEHIND Fiat-Chrysler as they announced ending cars such as the Dart and 200 more than a year before this announcement by Ford.
Sedans are going away. Faster here in the US than other places, but I believe their market share is dropping in Europe as well.
If Ford wanted a new sedan, there is nothing stopping them from working with Mazda much like Toyota and Subaru worked together for the BRZ/AE-86 or whatever it's called.
It's not a lack of talent. It's lack of desire to put more money into a currently shrinking market segment.
Just like station wagons died out when SUVs became the next big thing. Now that we have CUVs, sedans are going away.
The relationship between Ford and Mazda is dead. As of spring 2017, all connections were severed. Toyota has taken Ford’s place and that will expand over time.
I knew a guy working at CarMax back when 87 octane was $4.50 a gallon.
People were dumping their SUVs and pickup trucks at CarMack for fuel efficient vehicles. When gas is cheap everyone wants a big vehicle, if it goes above $3.75 Ford will be in big trouble.
People were dumping their SUVs and pickup trucks at CarMack for fuel efficient vehicles. When gas is cheap everyone wants a big vehicle, if it goes above $3.75 Ford will be in big trouble.
Ford raped Mazda.... it was bull. Glad Mazda left, Ford was a leech! What did Mazda get out of the deal? ??? ???????
It looked like it to me, it was more obvious in the 1990s as the Escort and Probe didn't do much to hide their Mazda roots. Ford and Nissan worked together as well, the Mercury Villager and the first two iterations of the Nissan Quest were interesting and both the Ford(chassis) and Nissan(powertrain) sides clashed.
The Fiesta/Mazda2, Focus/Mazda3/Volvo S40 and Fusion/Mazda6 were more integrated with each brand's "image". It seemed like Ford's brain trust let Volvo and Mazda work on the platforms for the their "global" car lineup, and the guys in Dearborn were focused on North America-exclusive things like trucks, SUVs(except the 2nd gen Escape and EcoSport), Mustang and GT40. Ford UK/Germany did contribute to the Mondeo and the Transit family.
We can't forget Jaguar and Land Rover as well, but it looked like Ford took a more laisez-faire approach with them. The first real Ford as a Jag was the Lincoln LS/Thunderbird which was based off the S-Type, Ford engines went into Range Rovers/LR3 and the RR Evoque does share some commonalities with the current Explorer.
The Fiesta/Mazda2, Focus/Mazda3/Volvo S40 and Fusion/Mazda6 were more integrated with each brand's "image". It seemed like Ford's brain trust let Volvo and Mazda work on the platforms for the their "global" car lineup, and the guys in Dearborn were focused on North America-exclusive things like trucks, SUVs(except the 2nd gen Escape and EcoSport), Mustang and GT40. Ford UK/Germany did contribute to the Mondeo and the Transit family.
We can't forget Jaguar and Land Rover as well, but it looked like Ford took a more laisez-faire approach with them. The first real Ford as a Jag was the Lincoln LS/Thunderbird which was based off the S-Type, Ford engines went into Range Rovers/LR3 and the RR Evoque does share some commonalities with the current Explorer.
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I believe that it's a combination of several factors.
*CUV/SUV sales are on the rise like never before
*Sales of sedans(especially FORD) are in decline & they're losing money.
*FORD's reliability & fuel economy isn't where it needs to be
*Maybe the separation from Mazda is also part of this as well. FORD certainly builds a nice selection af sedans and they are indeed nice to drive.
*CUV/SUV sales are on the rise like never before
*Sales of sedans(especially FORD) are in decline & they're losing money.
*FORD's reliability & fuel economy isn't where it needs to be
*Maybe the separation from Mazda is also part of this as well. FORD certainly builds a nice selection af sedans and they are indeed nice to drive.
Originally Posted By: Vern_in_IL
What did Mazda get out of the deal? ??? ???????
They grew up!
What did Mazda get out of the deal? ??? ???????
They grew up!
4WD
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This was covered in the other thread … hatchbacks … hatchbacks … hatchbacks
If I was shopping now … no doubt I’d get one … if they decide to retool? Hatchbacks
I’m in Aberdeen and they have taken over …some of the few sedans I see are Ford … not Mazda country …
If I was shopping now … no doubt I’d get one … if they decide to retool? Hatchbacks
I’m in Aberdeen and they have taken over …some of the few sedans I see are Ford … not Mazda country …
Originally Posted By: Char Baby
Originally Posted By: Vern_in_IL
What did Mazda get out of the deal? ??? ???????
They grew up!
As I read into the whole story, as Ford was divesting its shares of Mazda during the Mullaly administration, it came to a point that Mazda made a decision. They went to Sumitomo, a massive bank in Japan and asked for a loan. That loan would buy out the rest of Ford’s shares in Mazda plus money to modernize and upgrade their assembly plants. Sumitomo agreed and this is my theory, since Sumitomo and Toyota are in the same family a back room deal was made for future cooperation between the two. This was needed since Mazda knew they couldn’t go alone in this changing industry. The assembly and engine lines were redone with robotics and humanoid production.
So SkyActiv, which is their catch phrase for fresh start was the result. Everything was redone and Re-engineered from scratch. Engines, transmissions, chassis etc. The complete divorce took several years and last spring the final venture, the Ranger pickup plant in Thailand was ended as Mazda now contracts with Isuzu for that venture.
Originally Posted By: Vern_in_IL
What did Mazda get out of the deal? ??? ???????
They grew up!
As I read into the whole story, as Ford was divesting its shares of Mazda during the Mullaly administration, it came to a point that Mazda made a decision. They went to Sumitomo, a massive bank in Japan and asked for a loan. That loan would buy out the rest of Ford’s shares in Mazda plus money to modernize and upgrade their assembly plants. Sumitomo agreed and this is my theory, since Sumitomo and Toyota are in the same family a back room deal was made for future cooperation between the two. This was needed since Mazda knew they couldn’t go alone in this changing industry. The assembly and engine lines were redone with robotics and humanoid production.
So SkyActiv, which is their catch phrase for fresh start was the result. Everything was redone and Re-engineered from scratch. Engines, transmissions, chassis etc. The complete divorce took several years and last spring the final venture, the Ranger pickup plant in Thailand was ended as Mazda now contracts with Isuzu for that venture.
As the local Ford dealer says, "If'n it ain't 4WD, we dunno how to fix it and we dun care to larn!!"
Carmakers work with each other when it suits them. Ford contracted with Porsche to build the Duratec V6 back in the 1990s.
If Ford thought there was something to gain from working with another car maker, they would do it.
My point isn't specifically Mazda, but the fact that if they needed to go outside of Dearborn for engineering expertise, they can.
Originally Posted By: PimTac
Originally Posted By: javacontour
Ford is actually BEHIND Fiat-Chrysler as they announced ending cars such as the Dart and 200 more than a year before this announcement by Ford.
Sedans are going away. Faster here in the US than other places, but I believe their market share is dropping in Europe as well.
If Ford wanted a new sedan, there is nothing stopping them from working with Mazda much like Toyota and Subaru worked together for the BRZ/AE-86 or whatever it's called.
It's not a lack of talent. It's lack of desire to put more money into a currently shrinking market segment.
Just like station wagons died out when SUVs became the next big thing. Now that we have CUVs, sedans are going away.
The relationship between Ford and Mazda is dead. As of spring 2017, all connections were severed. Toyota has taken Ford’s place and that will expand over time.
If Ford thought there was something to gain from working with another car maker, they would do it.
My point isn't specifically Mazda, but the fact that if they needed to go outside of Dearborn for engineering expertise, they can.
Originally Posted By: PimTac
Originally Posted By: javacontour
Ford is actually BEHIND Fiat-Chrysler as they announced ending cars such as the Dart and 200 more than a year before this announcement by Ford.
Sedans are going away. Faster here in the US than other places, but I believe their market share is dropping in Europe as well.
If Ford wanted a new sedan, there is nothing stopping them from working with Mazda much like Toyota and Subaru worked together for the BRZ/AE-86 or whatever it's called.
It's not a lack of talent. It's lack of desire to put more money into a currently shrinking market segment.
Just like station wagons died out when SUVs became the next big thing. Now that we have CUVs, sedans are going away.
The relationship between Ford and Mazda is dead. As of spring 2017, all connections were severed. Toyota has taken Ford’s place and that will expand over time.
If by Ford claims, they never made money on the sedans using mainly Mazda's developed technology, which was cheap because they shared resources, they will certainly not make any money by outsourcing the engineering to a separate company.
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
If by Ford claims, they never made money on the sedans using mainly Mazda's developed technology, which was cheap because they shared resources, they will certainly not make any money by outsourcing the engineering to a separate company.
+1.
If by Ford claims, they never made money on the sedans using mainly Mazda's developed technology, which was cheap because they shared resources, they will certainly not make any money by outsourcing the engineering to a separate company.
+1.
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