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GM 89021806 ? Gimmick? Alternatives? #4697141
03/16/18 09:43 PM
03/16/18 09:43 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 624
Colorado, US
mdocod Offline OP
mdocod  Offline OP
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 624
Colorado, US
I just bought a new-to-me used 09 Hummer H3 with ~65K miles.

I'll be swapping all fluids in the coming months as part of routine new-ownership maintenance.

The manual transmission calls for GM 89021806. "75W-90 GL-3"

The Aisin AR-5 transmission is also found in several years of isuzu trooper, where the application calls out various motor oils depending on temps, 5w30, 5W-40, 10W-40, 15W-40 etc., which is not unfamiliar to me, as my other (soon to be retired) SUV (94 rodeo), with an isuzu MUA5 transmission, called for 5w-30 and it lasted without any hard part replacements for a quarter million miles on motor oil and various "MTF" fluids of similar viscosity and is still working just fine.

Royal Purple has a cross reference chart that offers HPS or XPR 10W-40 as an alternative to GM 89021806.

Given the cross references above, I'm having a hard time rationalizing the $20-30/qt prices to source the "special" GM stuff. As a matter of principal, I'm inclined to avoid what appears on the surface to be a fake "proprietary fluid" gimmick. I feel like this "proprietary" GM part is more likely a way to sell old engine oil at high prices.

The AC Delco Part number for this stuff, is, ironically: 10-4030

------------

We tend to just use whatever 0w30 or 0w40 A3/B4 we can find cheapest in the engines of all our cars (sometimes mobile, sometimes penzzoil, sometimes castrol, usually from walmart in 5 qt jugs), and is likely what I'll use in the engine for the hummer for "peace of mind." I'm very tempted to use it in the transmission as well, or put 5W40 T6 in it. Thoughts?

Lets assume for a moment that the GM "proprietary" fluid isn't available, or is a gimmick, or basically, just that I'm a stubborn pain in the butt and don't want to use it as a tiny fist raising exercise. What fluid would you use in place of it?

Thanks
-Eric

Re: GM 89021806 ? Gimmick? Alternatives? [Re: mdocod] #4697158
03/16/18 10:13 PM
03/16/18 10:13 PM
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 558
MN
14Accent Offline
14Accent  Offline
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 558
MN
I would just use Redline MTL. If you want to be exact, use MTL90, but in Colorado I would stick with the regular MTL.

Your trans will love it.


2013 Chevrolet Volt - Saves enough in fuel to pay for itself!

2003 Cadillac Seville STS - The winter "beater", it uses the Volt's fuel
Re: GM 89021806 ? Gimmick? Alternatives? [Re: mdocod] #4697192
03/16/18 11:08 PM
03/16/18 11:08 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 624
Colorado, US
mdocod Offline OP
mdocod  Offline OP
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 624
Colorado, US
14Accent,

That's an excellent suggestion! I had no idea redline had a product for this. Sure enough they have that GM part number listed as an OEM application for the MT-90.

I'm likely going to be installing skid plates, winch, rock-sliders, and 35" rubber on the H3. This means more rolling resistance (more rubber), more wind resistance (up higher), and about 400lbs more weight, all while reducing air flow over the transmission (skid plates), so I'm inclined to stick with the heavier MT-90.


2005 Volvo XC70 2.5L I5 Turbo.
1995 Isuzu Rodeo, 3.2L 4WD Manual. Extensive suspension and drive-line mods.
2009 Hummer H3 Adventure 3.7L I5 Manual.
Re: GM 89021806 ? Gimmick? Alternatives? [Re: mdocod] #4697199
03/16/18 11:19 PM
03/16/18 11:19 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,226
Iowegia - USA
MolaKule Offline
MolaKule  Offline
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,226
Iowegia - USA
Here is a list of 75W90 MTF's in the 14-15 cSt (SAE 75W90) range:

1. Amsoil MTG
2. Redline MT-90
3. Castrol Syntrans Multivehicle 75W-90
4. Castrol Syntrans Transaxle 75w-90
5. Ford XT-75W90-QGT (Carries a GL-5 rating as well)
6. Ford MOTORCRAFT® Full Synthetic Manual Transmission Fluid XT-M5-QS
7. ACDelco 10-4059 GL-4 75W-90 Manual Transmission Fluid
8. ACDelco 89021806 For use in MA5 manual transmission for GMT 345, GMT 355 Trucks and GMX 020 Cobalt Pursuit and G5 Passenger only. Caution: Rated at GL-3 (ExxonMobil fluid).
9. RAVENOL TSG SAE 75W-90
10. LiquiMoly 75W-90 GL4

Last edited by MolaKule; 03/16/18 11:19 PM.

Reading is fundamental; understanding is not a given ability.
Re: GM 89021806 ? Gimmick? Alternatives? [Re: mdocod] #4697258
03/17/18 04:19 AM
03/17/18 04:19 AM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 624
Colorado, US
mdocod Offline OP
mdocod  Offline OP
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 624
Colorado, US
Thanks MolaKule!

More options! nice!

As I look at those options, I'm picking up on the key words that seem to be important... For this transmission, an API GL-4 75w-90 that is optimized for use in syncromesh transmissions seems to be the running theme with a few cross references to the GM 89021806 called for. Valvoline also lists the GM 89021806 on their cross reference for their own Syncromesh MTF fluid. Probably can't go wrong with most of these. Leaning towards the MT-90 as it is actually looking to be one of the lower cost options at ~$17/qt shipped to my door and is one of the few with the GM cross reference on the product page.

Do you like a particular option in the list there best?

Thanks!


2005 Volvo XC70 2.5L I5 Turbo.
1995 Isuzu Rodeo, 3.2L 4WD Manual. Extensive suspension and drive-line mods.
2009 Hummer H3 Adventure 3.7L I5 Manual.
Re: GM 89021806 ? Gimmick? Alternatives? [Re: mdocod] #4698186
03/17/18 11:39 PM
03/17/18 11:39 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 624
Colorado, US
mdocod Offline OP
mdocod  Offline OP
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 624
Colorado, US
Found Valvoline syncromesh fluid at the local store for $10/qt with the GM part number I need right on the bottle!


2005 Volvo XC70 2.5L I5 Turbo.
1995 Isuzu Rodeo, 3.2L 4WD Manual. Extensive suspension and drive-line mods.
2009 Hummer H3 Adventure 3.7L I5 Manual.
Re: GM 89021806 ? Gimmick? Alternatives? [Re: mdocod] #4698209
03/18/18 12:29 AM
03/18/18 12:29 AM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,226
Iowegia - USA
MolaKule Offline
MolaKule  Offline
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,226
Iowegia - USA
What is the part number on the bottle?

If it is 811095 then that is the 10.0 cSt MTF, not the 14 cSt MTF you need.

I would have to disagree with Valvoline if they crossed reference 811095 as a direct replacement.


Last edited by MolaKule; 03/18/18 12:32 AM.

Reading is fundamental; understanding is not a given ability.
Re: GM 89021806 ? Gimmick? Alternatives? [Re: mdocod] #4698210
03/18/18 12:30 AM
03/18/18 12:30 AM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,226
Iowegia - USA
MolaKule Offline
MolaKule  Offline
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,226
Iowegia - USA
Originally Posted By: mdocod
Thanks MolaKule!

More options! nice!


Do you like a particular option in the list there best?

Thanks!


No, they are all good, but items 1 and 2 have had good reports in terms of wear protection and shiftability.


Reading is fundamental; understanding is not a given ability.
Re: GM 89021806 ? Gimmick? Alternatives? [Re: MolaKule] #4698243
03/18/18 02:52 AM
03/18/18 02:52 AM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 624
Colorado, US
mdocod Offline OP
mdocod  Offline OP
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 624
Colorado, US
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
What is the part number on the bottle?

If it is 811095 then that is the 10.0 cSt MTF, not the 14 cSt MTF you need.

I would have to disagree with Valvoline if they crossed reference 811095 as a direct replacement.



Yes it is the 811095 and unfortunately, it is already installed in the vehicle. I'm having a hard time understanding how they could put that number on the bottle if the viscosity isn't even close... If this is the 10cST type stuff, then I'd say I got ripped off both on cost and time.. Penzoil has a similar fluid at another local store for only $8 per qt.

The back of the bottle says, "suitable for use with"

.....long list of various fluid codes/spec/manufacture-part# etc.... including 89021806

----

http://www.carquestprofessionals.com/cat...20%206.6.13.pdf

They not only have that GM part number cross referenced to this fluid, they even have my specific vehicle and transmission cross referenced to this fluid in their chart.

Irritating....


2005 Volvo XC70 2.5L I5 Turbo.
1995 Isuzu Rodeo, 3.2L 4WD Manual. Extensive suspension and drive-line mods.
2009 Hummer H3 Adventure 3.7L I5 Manual.
Re: GM 89021806 ? Gimmick? Alternatives? [Re: mdocod] #4698562
03/18/18 11:39 AM
03/18/18 11:39 AM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 624
Colorado, US
mdocod Offline OP
mdocod  Offline OP
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 624
Colorado, US
Reviewing my thoughts about all the fluid changes I was doing yesterday.... The transmission fluid that came out of the H3 seemed very thin as well. I suspect the factory fill was with GM's "10cSt" range of OEM fluids.

One thing I noticed on this transmission, a bit of a "whine" in 5th gear at certain lowish speeds (~40-50mph). My isuzu used to do the same thing anytime I ran thinner fluids in it. I'll have to look out for that wine on this new fluid.

--------------

In an attempt to make lemonade, perhaps I will toss a few onces of ARX in the tranny with the thin stuff and run it for a year or 2 like that to really clean the snot out of it, then find a proper ~15cSt fluid for it then. I did that on the zu tranny and t-case before having it opened up for a low range install, (had wear items replaced inside transmission while the married pair were apart for good measure despite it still working fine). The re-builder actually commented about how insanely clean the transmission and T-case were on the inside, said he'd never seen anything like that on a driveline with near 200K on the dial.

Last edited by mdocod; 03/18/18 11:41 AM.

2005 Volvo XC70 2.5L I5 Turbo.
1995 Isuzu Rodeo, 3.2L 4WD Manual. Extensive suspension and drive-line mods.
2009 Hummer H3 Adventure 3.7L I5 Manual.
Re: GM 89021806 ? Gimmick? Alternatives? [Re: mdocod] #4698636
03/18/18 12:51 PM
03/18/18 12:51 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,226
Iowegia - USA
MolaKule Offline
MolaKule  Offline
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,226
Iowegia - USA
Originally Posted By: mdocod
...Reviewing my thoughts about all the fluid changes I was doing yesterday.... The transmission fluid that came out of the H3 seemed very thin as well. I suspect the factory fill was with GM's "10cSt" range of OEM fluids...



But that can also mean it sheared down in viscosity, or someone has installed a thinner viscosity MT fluid in the past.

Without an analysis of the VOA and comparing it to a UOA, thin or thick doesn't really mean anything.

Quote:
In an attempt to make lemonade, perhaps I will toss a few onces of ARX in the tranny with the thin stuff and run it for a year or 2 like that to really clean the snot out of it, then find a proper ~


I wouldn't add any OTC additive. ARX is simply an ester cleaner and may compete with the friction modifiers in the MTF formulation.

Any good dedicated MTF has detergents and dispersants in the formulation to clean the tranny.

Last edited by MolaKule; 03/18/18 12:58 PM.

Reading is fundamental; understanding is not a given ability.
Re: GM 89021806 ? Gimmick? Alternatives? [Re: MolaKule] #4699227
03/18/18 11:22 PM
03/18/18 11:22 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 624
Colorado, US
mdocod Offline OP
mdocod  Offline OP
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 624
Colorado, US
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
But that can also mean it sheared down in viscosity, or someone has installed a thinner viscosity MT fluid in the past. Without an analysis of the VOA and comparing it to a UOA, thin or thick doesn't really mean anything.


My car, I'm allowed to theorize about its fluids all I want wink

On that note:

My experience with fluids in cars tells me that the transmission, T-case, and diff fluids in this vehicle have not been replaced since the factory fill. It is highly unlikely to have fluid come out of these components as dark and contaminated in only 65K miles unless it were the same fluid that was subjected to the initial breakin of the drive-line and contaminated by remnants from assembly/machining processes and then ran for that entire duration. My experience with 30-60K intervals on driveline components is that once the factory fill is gone, subsequent intervals drain out looking hardly changed unless there was a problem with the driveline component that stressed the fluid with heat/friction or loaded it with new rapid wear contaminants.

Yes, I realize that the way an oil "looks" isn't *supposed* to have anything to do with its actual condition or performance. I'm not here to have that debate. I don't need a UOA to tell me that black, metallic shimmering oil coming out of this transmission is probably the factory fill fluid. I've seen this enough times to know what it looks like.

The fluid could very well have sheared down to thinner than original. What I observed is fluid that drained out with about the same apparent viscosity as the factory fill (likely also sheared down) dexron VI that came out of the transfer case, and was much thinner looking/feeling than the 5w30 that I drained from the engine shortly there after. There's no way I can accurately know what viscosity any of these fluids actually was when it drained. All I have to go on here is just the *relative* viscosity as observed.

Based on my observations, if the factory fill was a [email protected] fluid, it would have had to shear all the way down to a [email protected] fluid in the last 65K miles to do what I observed. I don't know if that is normal or not, but that seems unlikely to me. I think the more likely explanation, is that a [email protected] fluid sheared down to a [email protected] fluid in those miles, but that's just a theory.


Quote:
I wouldn't add any OTC additive. ARX is simply an ester cleaner and may compete with the friction modifiers in the MTF formulation.

Any good dedicated MTF has detergents and dispersants in the formulation to clean the tranny.


Some MTF fluids actually claim to be detergent free. The ARX in my isuzu transmission had no impact on synco behavior.

The only alternative I can think of for making lemonade out of this, is to contact Valvoline and ask them why they think this fluid is suitable for this application, and, if they can not provide an adequate answer, request that they refund the purchase price of the fluid, given that it is not what it claims to be.


2005 Volvo XC70 2.5L I5 Turbo.
1995 Isuzu Rodeo, 3.2L 4WD Manual. Extensive suspension and drive-line mods.
2009 Hummer H3 Adventure 3.7L I5 Manual.

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