Diesel Ban? Germany

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Originally Posted By: Trav
This has been going on for years, follow the money, once you know who is getting paid and who is paying it you have the real answer.



X3

All these good sounding initiatives always involve more money out of ordinary people's pockets.
An extra environmental fee here, a carbon tax there and there will be rainbows and unicorns soon.
 
Originally Posted By: Y_K
A passionate debate there


What debate? That article from Der Spiegel is only written to induce mass hysteria. It's all about how NOx emissions are poisoning the air in German cities, and the government must act decisively to prevent a public health disaster. All through the article, I'm wondering "Wow, how bad is the problem?". I had to read all the way down to the next to last paragraph to find an actual piece of data that might define the problem.

From the article:
Quote:
Earlier this month, nitrogen oxide measurements were taken for the first time in the streets around the parliament building and the Chancellery. The Green Party placed three measuring devices on Dorotheenstrasse, one of the quarter's busiest streets and where many parliamentarians have their offices. One of them found 45 micrograms of nitrogen oxide per cubic meter of air, much higher than the legal limit of 40. Two other sensors found values that were only just below the legal limit.


So the Greens put out emissions sensors, and one of them returned a reading that was 12.5% above the legal limit, with the other two below the limit. But Der Spiegel characterizes that as "much higher". Since most people can't do math, Der Spiegel is obviously depending on the use of inflammatory adjectives to influence public opinion. And buries the actual data deep in the article, so the few people who can do math probably won't see it.

The legal of 40 micrograms per cubic meter represents a concentration of .00004 kg per cubic meter in an atmosphere that has a standard sea level density of 1.22 kg/m^3. This is 33 parts per million by mass of NOx. I wonder what concentration of nitrous oxide (N2O) people breathe when they are going under anesthetic in the dentist's office?
 
I can't speak for the Germans but parts of London see NOx levels breaching the 200 limit with sickening regularity. I picked an article at random which highlights the problems.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.thegu...-just-five-days

You can listen to the loud, strident voices down the boozer, that will tell you there's no actual problem and how it's all a huge government conspiracy to extort more money out of The Great British Public or you can believe the medical establishment & public policy experts whose sole job it is to analyse and quantify the extent of the problem and recommend an appropriate, measured response.

I know who I'm going believe and it's not gobby Frank, the forklift truck operator who works for the minimum wage, but has an answer for every problem known to mankind!
 
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Nobody has the balls to open up about how many of the diesel owners tinker with the emission system, how many of them flash the ECU, do CAT deletes, DPF deletes and EGR removals/blocking.

Set a 50k fine and a few years in the slammer for this type of offenses, set up road blocks and catch a few of them. Call the media and make an example out of them and the news will spread faster than a wild fire.
 
More baloney presented in a manner to make people take sides. Blah blah
A big part of this issue is that the German automakers manufactured diesel vehicles knowing that they did not meet the emission restrictions and circumvented the regulations illegally.
Now what is the government supposed to do? Ban German diesel vehicles in German cities? That sure would send a lot of euros into the coffers of foreign diesel vehicle manufacturers. Since German auto manufacturers broke the law, lets ban all diesels and try to level the playing field so that there is a German auto choice for city dwellers while keeping other clean diesel cars from non-domestic manufacturers out of a cornered market.
Let's not forget what caused so much focus on the diesel car came from shady business practices. Otherwise the diesel car may have had a longer lifespan. I said may, no data.
This is more a form of protectionism under the guise of environmentalism.
 
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Where I live, most of the smog is either from junk cars that need to go to the junkyard and from guys who bypass their smog devices to get the most horsepower.

Ban those two, don't ban existing vehicles.

It wouldn't surprise me if car companies are backing this law in order to get more people to buy new gasoline cars. Japan has some absurd laws that ensure perfectly functional cars to be removed from the roads, and it wouldn't surprise me if people decided to follow their lead.
 
Well it look like the German courts approved the ban although it looks like it only applies to older diesels in major cities.

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-43211946

I hope we see this copied in London & other NOx afflicted UK cities.

Having said that, sales of new diesel engined cars here are dropping like the proverbial lead balloon (down 17% in 2017). I think the Dieselgate thing spooked people here. No-one likes being lied to and conned. People are voting with their feet and buying cleaner cars.
 
Originally Posted By: Andy636
Nobody has the balls to open up about how many of the diesel owners tinker with the emission system, how many of them flash the ECU, do CAT deletes, DPF deletes and EGR removals/blocking.

Set a 50k fine and a few years in the slammer for this type of offenses, set up road blocks and catch a few of them. Call the media and make an example out of them and the news will spread faster than a wild fire.



A 10K fine or confiscate the vehicle or both would be enough to put an end to it if it could be enforced. Proving and prosecuting individuals for this sort of stuff is a slippery slope.
What are you going to do when the guys says a guy of CL did some work and he must have done it and no I don't know his name?
Take out the rubber hose under the 100w light bulb.

At best I think removing the vehicle from the road until it can pass a strict inspection is the most you could hope for.
 
Next thing you know, the Brits will be transporting environment offenders to Australia. It is indeed a slippery slope. You vill do it or else!
 
They get really crazy with this stuff. I had an old MB diesel in perfect shape with 48K km on it so it was worth putting a few DM (at that time) in.
They put the tax through the roof then said if I fitted it with a retrofit approved cat unit the tax would drop to what was. Okay done deal DM800 plus inspection and documenting fees later it had a cat all approved and documented in the papers good to go. Wrong.

12mo later they say the cat you have isn't good enough to meet the even later standard and I need to replace it. That's a problem, they don't make one for this car, now what?
We put the tax up to an even higher rate than we did before. I would have been DM300 to the good if I had done nothing at all. LOL

The company that made the cat made money, the store that sold it made money, the inspection system made money, the state made money on documents fees and tax, I got screwed.

The way this was touted was you break even the first year and after that you save money, its good for the environment, the children and all the rest of it. In reality it was a revenue generating scheme nothing more.
I believe no politician or government in an any country or any party not one. The only difference is some are better than others at putting up enough smoke and mirrors to conceal their money snatching schemes from what they consider the village idiots (us).
 
I've been to Australia lots of times. Beautiful country! There are worse places to get transported to.

And if people were punished for polluting the air, would it actually be that bad? People bang on about THEIR personal freedom and THEIR rights but what about the people that come after us and the people who come after them? Don't they have the right to breath decent air? I think history will judge our generation very harshly. We want what we want because we want it. We do what we like because we can. We're unremittingly greedy & selfish and stick two fingers up at anyone that suggests maybe what we're doing is harmful long-term.
 
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The people that tune for rolling coal or delete the cats from a street vehicle need to face the consequences. I’m not much of a tree hugger but I don’t like sucking down unburned hydrocarbons so some jerk can feel like he is a big deal.
 
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Agreed, there is no need for that. Those are the guys that should have their trucks towed away, impounded and unregistered until brought back into original spec by a factory authorized dealer.
Transporting it all over the place and cost and fines all on the idiot they caught behind the wheel.
 
Here we've got rolling coal laws.

10 seconds of visible smoke, and is not stopped roadside, then a letter arrives. 10 working days to get the vehicle assessed by a licenced workshop (diesels, and oil burners), and provide the report to the RMS.

Another grab in a three month period, and it's a fine, and mandatory "repair".

Was at the local parts place the other day, and a guy walked up and started asking me how to stop his diesel smoking, and explained his plight (the above)...didn't have my preferred cetane improver at that shop, so followed him to another...saw no smoke at all.

While I fully support the laws and their intent, and the way in which gross polluters were off the road within a couple of years, they have extended to allowing civilians to make the assessment and dob in a driver. The greenies in the Blue Mountains have started a vendetta on diesels...and power stations, and roads, and ... well anything.

https://www.service.nsw.gov.au/transaction/report-smoky-vehicle
 
Originally Posted By: Andy636
Nobody has the balls to open up about how many of the diesel owners tinker with the emission system, how many of them flash the ECU, do CAT deletes, DPF deletes and EGR removals/blocking.

Set a 50k fine and a few years in the slammer for this type of offenses, set up road blocks and catch a few of them. Call the media and make an example out of them and the news will spread faster than a wild fire.



A scandal in the UK that is only not getting publicity is the widespread disabling on AdBlue systems to save money on thousands of LGV's

It is yet to be confirmed or denied if the same has been happening with the huge numbers of diesel London Buses
 
Originally Posted By: bigjl
Originally Posted By: Andy636
Nobody has the balls to open up about how many of the diesel owners tinker with the emission system, how many of them flash the ECU, do CAT deletes, DPF deletes and EGR removals/blocking.

Set a 50k fine and a few years in the slammer for this type of offenses, set up road blocks and catch a few of them. Call the media and make an example out of them and the news will spread faster than a wild fire.



A scandal in the UK that is only not getting publicity is the widespread disabling on AdBlue systems to save money on thousands of LGV's

It is yet to be confirmed or denied if the same has been happening with the huge numbers of diesel London Buses



I'd assumed that buses & trucks would be more 'controlled' than passenger cars because the costs of non-compliance are so much greater. However if you type the words 'AdBlue Disabling' into Google, you readily find links to control box devices which stop the use of AdBlue. One I found openly stated how it will stop AbBlue use completely and convert your truck from Euro 6 to Euro 3!

I suppose we shouldn't be surprised. Haulage in a notoriously cutthroat business and the temptation to hack away at cost is ever present. If you do stop using AdBlue, no-one dies straight away. And therein lies the problem. If one person dies suddenly, the system reacts. If you kill 10,000 people, a day at a time over 10 years, then the system's glacially slow to react and rogues can get away with murder!
 
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Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
Originally Posted By: bigjl
Originally Posted By: Andy636
Nobody has the balls to open up about how many of the diesel owners tinker with the emission system, how many of them flash the ECU, do CAT deletes, DPF deletes and EGR removals/blocking.

Set a 50k fine and a few years in the slammer for this type of offenses, set up road blocks and catch a few of them. Call the media and make an example out of them and the news will spread faster than a wild fire.



A scandal in the UK that is only not getting publicity is the widespread disabling on AdBlue systems to save money on thousands of LGV's

It is yet to be confirmed or denied if the same has been happening with the huge numbers of diesel London Buses



I'd assumed that buses & trucks would be more 'controlled' than passenger cars because the costs of non-compliance are so much greater. However if you type the words 'AdBlue Disabling' into Google, you readily find links to control box devices which stop the use of AdBlue. One I found openly stated how it will stop AbBlue use completely and convert your truck from Euro 6 to Euro 3!

I suppose we shouldn't be surprised. Haulage in a notoriously cutthroat business and the temptation to hack away at cost is ever present. If you do stop using AdBlue, no-one dies straight away. And therein lies the problem. If one person dies suddenly, the system reacts. If you kill 10,000 people, a day at a time over 10 years, then the system's glacially slow to react and rogues can get away with murder!


Both EPA and Euro manufacturers pumped raw, unfiltered diesel exhaust gasses to the lungs of people test subjects, without their full understanding of the test they signed up for, and could not kill one person.

I agree that all air pollutants should be controlled because they do affect our health, but all this talk about diesel exhaust killing people is unfounded.

epa-makes-de-from-smw.jpg
 
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
Originally Posted By: bigjl
Originally Posted By: Andy636
Nobody has the balls to open up about how many of the diesel owners tinker with the emission system, how many of them flash the ECU, do CAT deletes, DPF deletes and EGR removals/blocking.

Set a 50k fine and a few years in the slammer for this type of offenses, set up road blocks and catch a few of them. Call the media and make an example out of them and the news will spread faster than a wild fire.



A scandal in the UK that is only not getting publicity is the widespread disabling on AdBlue systems to save money on thousands of LGV's

It is yet to be confirmed or denied if the same has been happening with the huge numbers of diesel London Buses



I'd assumed that buses & trucks would be more 'controlled' than passenger cars because the costs of non-compliance are so much greater. However if you type the words 'AdBlue Disabling' into Google, you readily find links to control box devices which stop the use of AdBlue. One I found openly stated how it will stop AbBlue use completely and convert your truck from Euro 6 to Euro 3!

I suppose we shouldn't be surprised. Haulage in a notoriously cutthroat business and the temptation to hack away at cost is ever present. If you do stop using AdBlue, no-one dies straight away. And therein lies the problem. If one person dies suddenly, the system reacts. If you kill 10,000 people, a day at a time over 10 years, then the system's glacially slow to react and rogues can get away with murder!


Both EPA and Euro manufacturers pumped raw, unfiltered diesel exhaust gasses to the lungs of people test subjects, without their full understanding of the test they signed up for, and could not kill one person.

I agree that all air pollutants should be controlled because they do affect our health, but all this talk about diesel exhaust killing people is unfounded.

epa-makes-de-from-smw.jpg




It's really a difference in attitude...

In litigious North America, irrefutable proof positive, in the form of piles of dead bodies, is required before anything can be done. Strangely, even when the piles of bodies are there for everyone to see, still nothing gets done because people there love to disagree about things.

In Europe, if we see a problem, we say something must be done, even if we're not 100% sure of the facts. Accordingly, our governments tend to overreact in the hope of not ending up with piles of dead bodies, which everyone here agrees, aren't nice in a civilised society.

Banning old diesels from cities is just one example of this...
 
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