Recent Topics
Things are not as they seem to be..
by CourierDriver. 12/13/18 06:09 AM
Oz Ranger Raptor
by Shannow. 12/13/18 05:22 AM
Shop vac recommendations
by dlundblad. 12/13/18 05:06 AM
Internet Network Issues
by ZeeOSix. 12/13/18 04:13 AM
Looking for Fram Ultra XG30 and XG5 cut open
by rubberchicken. 12/12/18 10:27 PM
92 f150 332 code
by ram_man. 12/12/18 10:05 PM
Mixing brands of brake fluid / gear lube
by SureshR. 12/12/18 09:26 PM
45,000 miles in the Caprice.
by ls1mike. 12/12/18 09:21 PM
Quality oils?
by Horsehaulin. 12/12/18 09:16 PM
Exhaust fumes in cabin
by Skater4life27. 12/12/18 08:40 PM
Squeaky sunroof
by dishdude. 12/12/18 08:09 PM
Liqui Moly Top Tec 1800
by Chuckh. 12/12/18 07:56 PM
2006 Pathfinder Transmission Shudder
by Bluestream. 12/12/18 07:10 PM
Maybe E-10 is better? - PentaStar (Flex Fuel)
by StevieC. 12/12/18 06:52 PM
Shipping cost
by Fitter30. 12/12/18 06:45 PM
Purolator P1 14476 CUT OPEN
by 53' Stude. 12/12/18 06:00 PM
Which car to buy?
by jrcowboys. 12/12/18 04:55 PM
New Tire Cracking
by robd. 12/12/18 04:43 PM
SAR B6P - Thoughts?
by 28oz. 12/12/18 03:59 PM
Newest Members
Horsehaulin, JLew, bmrk1100, Rrrracer, jefe_de_estado
66664 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
56 registered members (askani79705, Astro_Guy, 69Torino, BeerCan, benhen77, alarmguy, 6 invisible), 1,051 guests, and 38 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums67
Topics295,007
Posts4,925,866
Members66,664
Most Online2,553
Oct 27th, 2018
Donate to BITOG
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3
Microns. What's most damage inducing? #4649260
01/28/18 03:47 PM
01/28/18 03:47 PM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,119
Illinois, U.S.A
RamFan Offline OP
RamFan  Offline OP
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,119
Illinois, U.S.A
I've been on this site for quite a while, and I've seen this topic brought up from time to time but I haven't been able to find conclusive evidence. It's been a while since this was discussed (that I noticed) so I thought I'd bring this up again.

What micron rating has been shown to cause the most damage? I've seen conflicting information on this topic, some sources state that anything under 2 microns are too small to cause any damage as most clearances are larger than 2 microns. Other sources note that 2-10 microns are the damage causing particles, while others state damage occurs with particles up to 20 microns.

I started looking into this because I noticed a decent amount of variance among filter manufacturers and their efficiency (not nominal) ratings. I'll use the following as an example as they all have a similar price point.

PureOne 14612 ($5.75) - 99.9% @ 40um ISO 4548-12
EcoGard S4612 ($5.31) - 99.9% @ 30um ISO 4548-12
Fram TG6607($6.69) - 99% @ >20um ISO 4548-12 based on average of TG8A, 3387A, & 4967


18 Giulia Ti Sport Q4
+2.0l turbo - 4k - PP Euro LX 0w30 - Mopar - 10k/1yr
16.5 CX-5 Touring AWD
+2.5l - 50k - SynPower w/ Maxlife 0w20 - PureOne - 8k/1yr
Re: Microns. What's most damage inducing? [Re: RamFan] #4649280
01/28/18 04:12 PM
01/28/18 04:12 PM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 19,271
PNW
ZeeOSix Offline
ZeeOSix  Offline
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 19,271
PNW
From the sources I've read on the subject, particles less than 20 microns contribute to the most wear. Pretty much what you've stated above.

Re: Microns. What's most damage inducing? [Re: RamFan] #4649300
01/28/18 04:30 PM
01/28/18 04:30 PM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 12,577
Idaho
CT8 Offline
CT8  Offline
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 12,577
Idaho
The ones that get ingested.


2015 Ford F150 2.7
2018 Ford F350 6.2
Re: Microns. What's most damage inducing? [Re: RamFan] #4649304
01/28/18 04:33 PM
01/28/18 04:33 PM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 20,570
MA, Mittelfranken.de
Trav Offline
Trav  Offline
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 20,570
MA, Mittelfranken.de
popcorn


ASE L1, Master. Deutsch Meisterbrief.
Re: Microns. What's most damage inducing? [Re: RamFan] #4649337
01/28/18 05:13 PM
01/28/18 05:13 PM
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 307
One Step Beyond
MasterSolenoid Offline
MasterSolenoid  Offline
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 307
One Step Beyond
25.4 microns = .001 inch


2002 Ford Ranger
2 Wheel Drive
3.0 Liter Engine
- - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Four basic premises of writing:
Clarity, Brevity, Simplicity, and Humanity.
Re: Microns. What's most damage inducing? [Re: RamFan] #4649375
01/28/18 06:01 PM
01/28/18 06:01 PM
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 50
Planet Earth
Jonzobot Offline
Jonzobot  Offline
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 50
Planet Earth
I believe that the <20 micron cause the most wear (I believe there have been SAE studies on this - e.g. http://www.upmpg.com/tech_articles/sae_filtration_study/index.html); however it is also my understanding that this wear is dwarfed by cold-startup wear in the average gasoline automobile. The more highway miles driven (and the fewer startups) means the particulate wear becomes more of an issue.

Re: Microns. What's most damage inducing? [Re: RamFan] #4649397
01/28/18 06:14 PM
01/28/18 06:14 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 893
Colorado
newtoncd8 Offline
newtoncd8  Offline
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 893
Colorado
Originally Posted By: RamFan
I started looking into this because I noticed a decent amount of variance among filter manufacturers and their efficiency (not nominal) ratings. I'll use the following as an example as they all have a similar price point.

PureOne 14612 ($5.75) - 99.9% @ 40um ISO 4548-12
EcoGard S4612 ($5.31) - 99.9% @ 30um ISO 4548-12
Fram TG6607($6.69) - 99% @ >20um ISO 4548-12 based on average of TG8A, 3387A, & 4967


To add to the list:
Honda A02 - 65% @20um
Toyota OEM - 50% @20um
Wix - 99% @ 23um
Wix XP - 99% @ 35um

In for the discussion as I usually use OEM filters.


12 Jeep GC, 04 Lexus RX330, 77 MG-B
11 Audi A4, 01 Audi A4
99 Lexus ES300, 98 Isuzu Trooper
94 & 91 Acura Integra, 88 Toyota Camry,
84 Honda Accord, 70 Pontiac LeMans,
62 Ford Galaxy 500
Re: Microns. What's most damage inducing? [Re: RamFan] #4649428
01/28/18 06:46 PM
01/28/18 06:46 PM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 542
Texas (south)
FermeLaPorte Offline
FermeLaPorte  Offline
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 542
Texas (south)
I would't worry so much.


Always Mobil 1
2014 1.6L Nissan Versa Sedan, 5 spd, 5k OCI.
2011 3.5L Chevrolet Impala, Automatic, 5k OCI.
Re: Microns. What's most damage inducing? [Re: RamFan] #4649431
01/28/18 06:48 PM
01/28/18 06:48 PM
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,296
California
Vuflanovsky Offline
Vuflanovsky  Offline
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,296
California
I'm no tribologist but I'm not sure you can answer your question in the way it's asked. The type of contact is what determines abrasive wear...and if there are soft and hard particles in that same micron size doing different things then a demarcation line of 20 or 40 microns probably doesn't give you an accurate portrayal. If some particulate has more eroding or etching properties than others over a 20-40 micron range then I would think it's more about the type of particulate than the micron size x however many miles. Old oil versus new oil...or that guy on here that says the best oil filter is a good air filter.

I believe that's why they use constant and relational algorithms to closer determine both the size and type of particles in analyzing wear. It's not so much a one dimensional question.

Re: Microns. What's most damage inducing? [Re: Jonzobot] #4649432
01/28/18 06:51 PM
01/28/18 06:51 PM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 19,271
PNW
ZeeOSix Offline
ZeeOSix  Offline
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 19,271
PNW
Originally Posted By: Jonzobot
I believe that the <20 micron cause the most wear (I believe there have been SAE studies on this - e.g. http://www.upmpg.com/tech_articles/sae_filtration_study/index.html); however it is also my understanding that this wear is dwarfed by cold-startup wear in the average gasoline automobile. The more highway miles driven (and the fewer startups) means the particulate wear becomes more of an issue.


Yep, cold start-up wear is definitely in the mix.

Re: Microns. What's most damage inducing? [Re: RamFan] #4649453
01/28/18 07:10 PM
01/28/18 07:10 PM
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 742
Georgia
MParr Offline
MParr  Offline
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 742
Georgia
Think of it this way, what happens in the lab stays in the lab. Normal or severe operating conditions will never replicate lab conditions.


2013 KIA Optima EX 2.4L. Now: QSUD 5W30 & STP S2808ML
2017 Ford Escape SE 2.0T Now: Mobil 1 5W30 & NAPA Gold 1348
Re: Microns. What's most damage inducing? [Re: RamFan] #4649456
01/28/18 07:13 PM
01/28/18 07:13 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 7,324
USA
slacktide_bitog Offline
slacktide_bitog  Offline
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 7,324
USA
Motorking said in a video somewhere that 10-20 microns is the most damaging range. I can't seem to find which video it is, though crzy

Re: Microns. What's most damage inducing? [Re: MParr] #4649458
01/28/18 07:14 PM
01/28/18 07:14 PM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 19,271
PNW
ZeeOSix Offline
ZeeOSix  Offline
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 19,271
PNW
To add ... engines under heavy and sustained loads can cause more engine wear, especially in the rod and crank journal bearings because of higher oil temperatures, and therefore a resulting lower MOFT between the parts. Get an oil cooler if heavy towing loads are something your vehicle experiences on a regular basis.

Re: Microns. What's most damage inducing? [Re: RamFan] #4649467
01/28/18 07:21 PM
01/28/18 07:21 PM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 744
texas
danez_yoda Online content
danez_yoda  Online Content
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 744
texas
If you are happy with 200k miles of engine service, change the oil at the manufacturers intervals with the manufacturers suggested oil and filter. Any engine failure will not be particulate wear related.

If your looking for a 1million mile car. Thats different but a few toyota hold that title with no special filter or oil.

My cars at least 10 or so have regularly run over 150k before being sold in fine running condition.

All of this banter on optimizing oil and filterperformance is mainly for fun not necessity.

Re: Microns. What's most damage inducing? [Re: danez_yoda] #4649552
01/28/18 08:52 PM
01/28/18 08:52 PM
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 7,143
Waco, TX
Linctex Offline
Linctex  Offline
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 7,143
Waco, TX
Originally Posted By: danez_yoda

If your looking for a 1million mile car. Thats different but a few toyota hold that title with no special filter or oil.


There are a LOT (and I do mean a lot) of F150's and F250's with 500,000 miles


"The evidence demands a verdict".
(Re:VOA)"it's nearly impossible to actually know the particular additives that are in there at what concentrations."
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3

BOB IS THE OIL GUY® Powered by UBB.threads™