Harley Sportster 5000 miles Red Line PS 20w-50

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1,047
Location
Indiana (IN)
Thread starter
Latest UOA from my 2013 Sportster XL1200C (Stock engine) The copper jumped again. Has been high since the original 1000 mile service, but never this high. My other UOAs are posted here also- 2013 Sportster 1000-35000 UOAs I did do more running at higher throttle openings and higher rpms during this OCI. Been tuning the 40-100 TPS VE values. Still not sure if the copper is from the cam bushings or somewhere else (piston pin bushing, con rod bearing cage or valve guides) Might have to tear it down this winter to find out. The Fram Ultra didn't do too well based on the particle count.
Code
+-----------------+----------+----------+----------+----------+-----------+----------+-------------+
| Miles on oil    | 5000     | 5000     | 5000     | 5000     | 5000      | 5000     | 5000        |
| Total miles     | 15000    | 20000    | 25000    | 30000    | 35000     | 40000    | 45000       |
| Date            | 02/20/16 | 10/12/16 | 08/16/17 | 06/18/18 | 10/30/18  | 08/19/19 | 06/08/20    |
| Make up oil     | 0        | 0        | 0        | 0        | 0         | 0        | 0           |
| Oil Brand       | R L MC   | R L MC   | R L MC   | RL MC    | RL MC     | RL MC    | RL MC       |
| Weight          | 20w-50   | 20w-50   | 20w-50   | 20w-50   | 20w-50    | 20w-50   | 20w-50      |
|                 |          |          |          |          |           |          |             |
| Filter          | HD B     | M1MC131  | M1MC131  | HD 5 mic | WIX 51748 | PBL10241 | Fram XG3614 |
|                 |          |          |          |          |           |          |             |
| ALUMINUM        | 3        | 1        | 8        | 2        | 4         | 3        | 2           |
| CHROMIUM        | 0        | 0        | 0        | 0        | 0         | 0        | 0           |
| IRON            | 8        | 5        | 6        | 4        | 5         | 4        | 9           |
| COPPER          | 132      | 75       | 72       | 84       | 207       | 153      | 477         |
| LEAD            | 4        | 1        | 1        | 2        | 0         | 0        | 0           |
| TIN             | 9        | 3        | 3        | 3        | 8         | 6        | 16          |
| MOLYBDENUM      | 456      | 403      | 461      | 430      | 442       | 386      | 443         |
| NICKEL          | 1        | 0        | 0        | 0        | 0         | 0        | 0           |
| MANGANESE       | 0        | 0        | 0        | 0        | 0         | 0        | 0           |
| SILVER          | 0        | 1        | 0        | 0        | 0         | 0        | 0           |
| TITANIUM        | 0        | 0        | 0        | 0        | 1         | 1        | 1           |
| POTASSIUM       | 7        | 4        | 1        | 3        | 3         | 6        | 3           |
| BORON           | 15       | 13       | 23       | 13       | 16        | 12       | 12          |
| SILICON         | 10       | 8        | 24       | 28       | 19        | 21       | 35          |
| SODIUM          | 7        | 10       | 7        | 7        | 9         | 10       | 16          |
| CALCIUM         | 2703     | 2214     | 2528     | 2395     | 2433      | 2349     | 2613        |
| MAGNESIUM       | 45       | 16       | 12       | 10       | 10        | 8        | 10          |
| PHOSPHORUS      | 1676     | 1516     | 1703     | 1648     | 1691      | 1569     | 1669        |
| ZINC            | 2315     | 1811     | 2177     | 1980     | 1979      | 1880     | 2095        |
| BARIUM          | 3        | 3        | 3        | 2        | 1         | 1        | 3           |
|                 |          |          |          |          |           |          |             |
| SUS @ 210F      | 98.8     | 103.9    | 99.1     | 97.1     | 99.9      | 95.8     | 99.5        |
| cSt @ 100C      | 20.08    | 21.26    | 20.14    | 19.67    | 20.34     | 19.36    | 20.23       |
| Flashpoint F    | 430      | 420      | 410      | 430      | 425       | 420      | 445         |
| Fuel         %  | <0.5     | <0.5     | <0.5     | <0.5     | <0.5      | <0.5     | <0.5        |
| Antifreeze %    | 0        | 0        | 0        | 0        | 0         | 0        | 0           |
| Water       %   | 0        | 0        | 0        | 0        | 0         | 0        | 0           |
| Insolubles %    | 0.2      | tr       | 0.2      | 0.1      | 0.3       | TR       | 0.2         |
| TBN             |          |          |          |          |           |          |             |
|                 |          |          |          |          |           |          |             |
| Particle Count  |          |          |          |          |           |          |             |
| filter          | HD B     | M1 MC131 | M1 MC131 | HD 5 mic | WIX 51748 | PBL10241 | Fram Xg3614 |
| ISO Code (2)    | 21/14    | 18/14    | 20/15    | 20/17    | 22/16     | 21/16    | 22/18       |
| NAS 1638 Class  | 12       | 10       | 12       | 12       | 12        | 12       | 12          |
| ISO Code (3)    | 24/21/14 | 24/18/14 | 24/20/15 | 24/20/17 | 24/22/16  | 24/21/16 | 24/22/18    |
| SAE AS4059 cpc  | 12       | 12       | 12       | 12       | 12        | 12       | 12          |
| 4 Micron        | 122237   | 85538    | 99920    | 95886    | 121960    | 111794   | 117734      |
| 6 Micron        | 18446    | 2430     | 8597     | 7971     | 25675     | 14945    | 27063       |
| 14 Micron       | 97       | 117      | 269      | 1139     | 485       | 611      | 2134        |
| 21 Micron       | 23       | 22       | 36       | 412      | 96        | 157      | 806         |
| 38 Micron       | 3        | 2        | 3        | 42       | 14        | 10       | 116         |
| 70 Micron       | 0        | 0        | 0        | 2        | 3         | 1        | 6           |
| total particles | 140806   | 88109    | 108825   | 105452   | 148233    | 127518   | 147859      |
| wear metals     | 157      | 85       | 90       | 95       | 224       | 173      | 508         |
+-----------------+----------+----------+----------+----------+-----------+----------+-------------+ 
 
Messages
2,411
Location
Deep in the heart of Jersey
The only time I've heard high copper numbers in Harley's, they said it comes from the oil cooler. If you don't have one, that eliminates that possibility. If your running a chrome oil filter, I know they copper coat the filter cans .It might be leaching into the oil if the inside has been chromed also. I don't see where Harley would use copper in a Sportster motor, so I would do a VOA to see if the oil normally contains it.,,
 
Messages
1,047
Location
Indiana (IN)
Thread starter
Stock engine, no oil cooler, the Fram Ultra oil filter was not chromed smile Copper/Bronze in a Sportster engine bronze valve guides 8 copper/bronze cam bushings copper/bronze rocker arm bushings connecting rod top end piston pin bushing possibility the connecting rod lower bearing cage
 
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389
Location
VA
Your lager than 14 micro particle counts are way up from the last sample as well. Plan to keep riding it or tear it down?
 
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4,209
Location
South Carolina
Man, I would be concerned, more so if you compared your engine UOA to others of the same. I am curious, please dont take this the wrong way but why continue to use RedLine with such concerning reports? Can you imagine if the oil was something like Super Tech from Walmart? The oil would get trashed but no one is questioning the oil just because its expensive Red Line? Im not saying its the oil, not at all, but questioning weather spending the extra money on it is worth it. I do see you run a full 5000 miles so maybe it is, just curious.
 
Messages
699
Location
Colorado, USA
Redline oil or any other oil isn't causing this issue, I think that's probably safe to say like has been mentioned above. Something mechanical going on in there, I hope you find the issue this winter and it doesn't find you while you're out riding first. With that said, a 5000 mile oci in an air-cooled engine that was being ridden hard this time around and your viscosity held up well along with other wear metals being in great shape says something about the oil.
 
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4,209
Location
South Carolina
Being ridden hard is just a subjective opinion and certainly not as factual as actual oil temperatures. One thing not in great shape is copper levels, Then again I know nothing about this engine But clearly something seems to be going on
 
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Messages
1,047
Location
Indiana (IN)
Thread starter
The factory fill HD-360 had 190 ppm copper in 1000 miles, HD SYN 3 had 278 ppm at the 5000 mile service, 4000 miles on the oil. The copper has always been high, better filtration seems to reduce the copper. My oil temps usually run around 200F, the only time I see higher is on long interstate runs at 70+ mph, then around 220 F. (Current OCI has about 600 miles of interstate travel, oil temps were around 220 when stopping for gas) My unit averages alum (~3.5) and iron (~6.6) wear is less than the Blackstone "universal averages", 5 for alum and 10 for iron, even at 66% longer OCIs. 5000 miles compared to 3000. I already have another 1500 miles on it, I may do another UOA at 2500-3000 miles just to see if anything changes. It seems the current darling of the oil filter world here on BITOG didn't do as well as even the standard HD filter, the worst particle count on this engine so far smile
 
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Messages
4,209
Location
South Carolina
^^ yes, I understand all that and dont take it as I am debating you, it was a thought on my mind, that is all. When you were running the Harley oil it was still a new bike breaking in. Again, I dont know your engine but the 103 touring engines always have a high copper(some much higher then others) level while breaking in and then drastically go down to more normal numbers. For some reason and Blackstone first to comment on this but it does hold true, longer OCIs do not drastically increase wear metals, meaning something with a 3000 UOA, metals will not double on the same engine with a 6000 mile UOA, dont know why but most of the wear metals are seen in the first few thousands miles. IN the Harley hot oil thread I reposted my UOAs I have 1 with 4000 miles on it and one with 2000 miles on it, the one with 4000 miles has lower metals then the 2000 miles but lowest yet is the one with 3000 miles ... (all numbers rounded off) granted the 2000 mile UOA was when the engine was newer but still above 5000 miles at the time. Anyway, only asked the question because most wear metals being great, yes but that copper, yikes, at the same time, I do agree oil is not going to cure it and not blaming the oil but I think we can say, if it was a cheap oil some would blame it :o) Anyway, good luck, man it would be driving me crazy,
 
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Messages
4,209
Location
South Carolina
Ps. As far as oil filters I personally think the HD oil filter is a very good filter but over the years the cost to me I don't know just got outrageous. I can't say for certain if the last UOA was a HiFlo filter or not At some point I tried using one. But I think it was after those UOAs that I tried one. I then went back to the HD filter because the high flow is more difficult to get on and off as it's a little bit bigger and the oil filter tool is a pain in the neck to use on it as the 103 has a crankshaft sensor or some kind of sensor that gets in the way of the HD filter wrench. I have since bought a new filter wrench and now back to the HiFlo filters. I believe but have no way of knowing the HiFlo filter is simply a KN without the nut. I also in the more early stages of the bike replaced the standard Harley Davidson magnetic oil plug with a much more powerful Gold Plug. Either way there is very little dusting on the magnetic plug and I used to have a lot more my Yamaha 1300, if I remember correctly. Then again the Yamaha also shared the transmission with the motor oil.
 
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Messages
1,058
Location
Florida /Texas
I thought Redline in a Harley always showed elevated copper levels. I'd try some easier before tearing a motor down and looking for an issue , like a couple flushes with differnt oil
 
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5,677
Location
Atlanta
Originally Posted by shanneba
... It seems the current darling of the oil filter world here on BITOG didn't do as well as even the standard HD filter, the worst particle count on this engine so far smile
I've had non-stellar particle counts from an Ultra as well. (You will get blamed for it, couldn't be the filter you know) I run an SP5 on mine, as long as the MOCO doesn't change them, they are fine filters. Since the Redline seems to be a constant, a switch would be interesting...
 
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4,209
Location
South Carolina
ok, so now maybe I am regretting using a Hiflo filter and 15/50 Mobil 1 as a one time experiment for oil temps compare to a semi syn. Not sure if I am loving this oil or not yet but starting to wonder if I am going to drain it and put my own trusty favorite oil back in. Hopefully get a long hard beach run this coming weekend, so far the weather looks good, then I will know. Sounds like the HD filter has some stuff backing up its claimed ratings.
 
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4,209
Location
South Carolina
Originally Posted by BigCahuna
What makes you think the Hiflo and mobil 1 are not doing their thing?.,,,
You know I'll get back to you on that. I'm hoping but not sure yet to have a good hard run to the beach this weekend 2up in 90+ degree heat. If you didn't see one of my posts this was just an experiment to see if the theory by some that the oil runs cooler if it's a full synthetic. I know my oil temperature range like the back of my hand using a semi synthetic so with the full synthetic Mobil 1 15 W 50 I'm curious if there will be any difference. I do fully intend to go back to my preferred oil after this experiment which we all know what that is ha ha It could be just my imagination but once in a great while when I start the bike I'll hear a little clatter for just a second or two similar to the clatter you hear right after an oil change but for a much shorter time. I suppose it could also be the high flow filter leaking down a little bit. I'll know more this weekend after I hopefully and I stress hopefully get to the beach. It's a solid two hour run taking into account approximately 20 minutes of traffic and a solid one and a half hours of 75+mph (gps) I don't know, it might just be my imagination but I almost thought in my mind that one time that it took a second to where the lifters might have bled down after the bike was sitting for a week?
 
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Messages
699
Location
Colorado, USA
Understanding you haven't put it to the temperature test yet, how many miles are on the bike with the M1 in there? Lol, you are in love with Mystik JT8 15w50 and no matter what the new girl does, you only have eyes for JT8. shocked2
 
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4,209
Location
South Carolina
Originally Posted by Bonz
Understanding you haven't put it to the temperature test yet, how many miles are on the bike with the M1 in there? Lol, you are in love with Mystik JT8 15w50 and no matter what the new girl does, you only have eyes for JT8. shocked2
Not many miles, less then a 1000 for sure maybe 500 (just guessing) *LOL* its not a love but a good relationship, there isnt anything much more sexy out there in a CH4+ or higher except Amsoil and she isnt worth it to me or maybe better said, wont do anything more then the Mystic does. :o) Weather looking good for the beach Sat, so far, mentally getting over the mental hump with the covid thing, it will be crowed there, but looking like we are going, wife is onboard to check it out too.
 
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