Honda OEM filters

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: typ901
Great thread! Reminds me of this SAE Study with GM (Detroit Diesel) from 1988.

http://papers.sae.org/881825/

http://www.shopfiltermag.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Summary_SAE_FilterMAG1.pdf


I noticed the SAE website is getting really stingy with the preview of their papers. They use to show 6~8 pages, now 1 or 2 which tells you nothing more than the abstract.

Another good reference is the SAE "bus study", which used data collected from a fleet of buses. Conclusion was the better you clean the engine oil, the less engine wear there is. Not a hard conclusion to come up with from the basic logic of contamination and it's effect on wear.

 

[fdcg27]

Originally Posted By: CT8
The most important thing an oil filter can do is not fail.


This^^
Japanese brand OEM oil filters are well known for low efficiency.
Since these makers can spec whatever filtering efficiency they want for about the same coin, you have to wonder why they don't spec greater efficiency.
What might their engineers know that we here don't?

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Originally Posted By: CT8
The most important thing an oil filter can do is not fail.

This^^
Japanese brand OEM oil filters are well known for low efficiency.
Since these makers can spec whatever filtering efficiency they want for about the same coin, you have to wonder why they don't spec greater efficiency.
What might their engineers know that we here don't?


For one thing, I think Honda has had the 2 OCI use of the oil filter in their maintenance schedule for a long time. Making the filter less efficient helps it last longer without loading up as fast, and therefore able to go 2 OCIs.

 

[Linctex]

There HAS to be more to this than meets they eye....
There is not enough info to draw a conclusion!

i.e., pushing a filter to flow fast always lowers it's efficiency,
whereas slowing down the flow through the media increases efficiency.

I say there isn't enough info from this little "Mann-Hummel experiment
to draw a conclusion............
...........other than they are trying to get you to buy more oil filters!


Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: Danh
Filters do get more efficient, with use ...

Not according to Purolator/Mann+Hummel testing. The graph shows that the larger particles efficiency suffered some over time as the filter became loaded up. As mentioned above, the ISO efficiency calculation is the average over the duration of the test. So if you looked at the 20 micron line, the efficiency started out at around 90% but ended up at around 60%, so the ISO test calculation would say this filter is around 75% efficient at 20 microns.

 

[CR94]

Originally Posted By: Linctex
... I say there isn't enough info from this little "Mann-Hummel experiment
to draw a conclusion...
Conspicuously missing info would include whether the oil viscosity and flow rate per area of media were typical of real filters. Most important: How many miles of normal use in a healthy clean engine corresponds to each minute on the horizontal axis of that plot? I suspect a lot, because it's an extremely accelerated test.

 

[Gebo]

I'm getting a headache. I wish I know why Toyota specs their oil filters with this media that appears to be shotty.

 

[ZeeOSix]

The experiment shows that as the filter loads up and the delta-p across the media increases, the filter's efficiency slowly decreases for the larger particles. Probably because as delta-p increases it forces some of the captured particles to break free and exit from the media.

So what that says IMO is that you don't really want to change the oil filter before it gets so clogged up that it's getting close to it's bypass valve setting. In other words, don't run a filter that's rated for 5,000 miles for 15,000 miles.

And people who keep saying "oil filters get more efficient the longer they are ran" are wrong, as this test data proves otherwise.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
So what that says IMO is that you don't really want to change the oil filter before it gets so clogged up that it's getting close to it's bypass valve setting.


Meant to say: So what that says IMO is that you don't really want to change the oil filter before it gets so clogged up that it's getting close to it's bypass valve setting.

If your engine is a sludger/debris maker best change the filter at the filter maker's recommendation. Lower tier filters have less holding capacity (ie, Fram EG less than TG and TG less than XG).

 

[Sayjac]

Appears with the M&H efficiency graph posted, the discussion has turned to holding capacity ie., loading of filter. Member Jim Allen posted "The average filter in the average car at average OCI/FCI is less than 50% loaded when removed." More details on that finding and related information like having other inputs under control too can be found in the link. https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthr...Pur#Post3148796

Based on that information, IMO very unlikely anyone frequenting bitog comes close to loading any filter to the point putting an oil filter in permanent bypass or even close to the M&H far right side of the graph. 'Perhaps' a neglected and/or known sludger engine might reach that point. However, likely have other issues besides filter loading if that is the case. So similar to filter flow, filter loading/holding capacity not something I'd concern myself with and same goes for most reading here.

Also for the M&H efficiency study and graph, want to give credit to member edhackett where I first saw the study posted on the AF sub forum. If interested the link to the complete M&H efficiency study including the graph can found in the link in ed's post linked below.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthr...r_e#Post4383380

 

[nthach]

Since Honda does source their filters from Fram, and rumor here is that the 15400-PLM-A02 filter is really a OCOD with a silicone ADBV without SureGrip on the can, I assume Honda is happy with a 98% efficient filter.

It seems like the Japanese want flow - but two different ways of doing that, "lower" efficiency filtration(Toyota and Honda) or more GPH out of the oil pump, needing a higher pressure bypass(Subaru).

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: nthach
Since Honda does source their filters from Fram, and rumor here is that the 15400-PLM-A02 filter is really a OCOD with a silicone ADBV without SureGrip on the can, I assume Honda is happy with a 98% efficient filter.


Fram EG is 95% @ 20 microns. But that doesn't mean Honda OEM is the same media. Honda can spec out whatever they want and Fram makes it to Honda spec.

Originally Posted By: nthach
It seems like the Japanese want flow - but two different ways of doing that, "lower" efficiency filtration(Toyota and Honda) or more GPH out of the oil pump, needing a higher pressure bypass(Subaru).


IMO, it's not about "flow" ... it's about OCI length per their factory service schedule. The only time you're going to see flow specs really come into play is on a super high performance race car, and that's why "racing filters" exist. Pretty much any main stream brand name filter is going to be "invisible" in term of flow resistance to a normal street car's oil pump.

 

[Dino01]

I wonder if they’re making up for lower efficiency oil filters with very high efficiency air filters?

 

[DoubleWasp]

A lot of manufacturers make up for it by making really good engines. Automotive history is littered with engines that run forever on rock catcher filters and basement grade oil.

Rock catcher filters and basement grade oil are staples of many 5000+ hour industrial engines.

 

[Linctex]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix

And people who keep saying "oil filters get more efficient the longer they are ran" are wrong, as this test data proves otherwise.


Wrong, that "test data" is completely inconclusive.

I can blow all kinds of holes in their testing parameters (or lack therof)

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: Linctex
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
And people who keep saying "oil filters get more efficient the longer they are ran" are wrong, as this test data proves otherwise.

Wrong, that "test data" is completely inconclusive.

I can blow all kinds of holes in their testing parameters (or lack therof)

Ok, lets hear them. I expect you to back up your claim it's wrong with valid technical links ... not just your opinion/"theory".

BTW, I found an official ISO 4548-12 test report done by the Southwest Research Institute (SwRI) that shows the particle count data taken during the test, and it shows the same trend as the Purolator/M+H graph showing that the efficiency decreases as the filter loads up. That backs up what the Puro/M+H graph shows, so it's not really as inconclusive as you think.

Also, note that the graph is what Puro/M+H actually measured in the lab (probably using ISO 4548-12 test method), not a computer modeling like the rest of the paper talks about.

That's probably also why ISO 4548-12 says to calculate the average efficiency over the duration of the test so nobody can pick the high point and claim the filter is always that efficient.

 

[harry j]

Sure better filter exist, take the Amsoil filter for instance, the EAO36 is rated at 15 microns absolute.

This filter has helped my 1993 Civic rack up 492,000 miles and counting.

 

[DuckRyder]

Originally Posted By: nthach
Since Honda does source their filters from Fram, and rumor here is that the 15400-PLM-A02 filter is really a OCOD with a silicone ADBV without SureGrip on the can, I assume Honda is happy with a 98% efficient filter. ...


I really don’t understand where this stuff comes from.

Right in this thread we have Jay telling us the Honda filter has different media and is ~65% efficient.

Yet this is the second time in as many days I’ve read that it is a TG with EG media...

WHY is it so hard for folks to grasp that Honda has filters made to their specification?

 

[mightymousetech]

Originally Posted By: DuckRyder

WHY is it so hard for folks to grasp that Honda has filters made to their specification?


This.

 

[Gebo]

Originally Posted By: mightymousetech
Originally Posted By: DuckRyder

WHY is it so hard for folks to grasp that Honda has filters made to their specification?


This.



That.

 

[ZeeOSix]

And the other ...