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Winter Diesel additive gelling test #4586557
11/27/17 01:34 PM
11/27/17 01:34 PM
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 203
A Highway Near You
PiperOne Offline OP
PiperOne  Offline OP
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 203
A Highway Near You
I bought some diesel fuel a while back in El Paso specifically to bring home and do some winter fuel additive testing. My thought is to fill new clean Mason jars with the fuel, 5 of them with untreated fuel, 1 each with the prescribed dose of additive from Howes, Power Service and, Stanadyne. I would use

Re: Winter Diesel additive gelling test [Re: PiperOne] #4586560
11/27/17 01:38 PM
11/27/17 01:38 PM
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 203
A Highway Near You
PiperOne Offline OP
PiperOne  Offline OP
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 203
A Highway Near You
Stupid phone! I would use the untreaded jars to test what happens to the fuel if you add the additive after gelling occurs...use 1 to show what an emergency additive does (PS 911) and leave one as a control un touched. I realize it isnt scientific but thought it might be fun.

Thoughts?


HDEO in Diesel Engines. No spark plugs here.
Re: Winter Diesel additive gelling test [Re: PiperOne] #4586574
11/27/17 01:54 PM
11/27/17 01:54 PM
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,439
Michigan
stockrex Offline
stockrex  Offline
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,439
Michigan
Just buy your fuel from a reputable semi place, I do this and never have gelled. no addy.
On the road if you have no choice then get any of them. tractor place sells one, I bought, it was rated high, can't recall the name now.

Last edited by stockrex; 11/27/17 01:54 PM.

Ridgeline, Dmax, Ford 3.5
Oil Whisperer!*Fear the DINO*
Re: Winter Diesel additive gelling test [Re: stockrex] #4586582
11/27/17 01:59 PM
11/27/17 01:59 PM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 2,031
SoCal
UG_Passat Offline
UG_Passat  Offline
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Posts: 2,031
SoCal
Originally Posted By: stockrex
Just buy your fuel from a reputable semi place, I do this and never have gelled. no addy.
On the road if you have no choice then get any of them. tractor place sells one, I bought, it was rated high, can't recall the name now.


Usually, Powerservice DFS, Stanadyne, etc also includes cleaners and cetane enhancers to the mix, leaving little room for anti-gel.


2016 VW Tiguan|APR Stage 1|Neuspeed P-Flo|Osram CBI|Redline 5w30
Re: Winter Diesel additive gelling test [Re: PiperOne] #4586588
11/27/17 02:02 PM
11/27/17 02:02 PM
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 203
A Highway Near You
PiperOne Offline OP
PiperOne  Offline OP
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Posts: 203
A Highway Near You
I've never had a problem on road either...and only use an additive if I buy fuel down south and know I'm heading north into MUCH colder weather. The idea is just a fun test to see them work.


HDEO in Diesel Engines. No spark plugs here.
Re: Winter Diesel additive gelling test [Re: PiperOne] #4586606
11/27/17 02:14 PM
11/27/17 02:14 PM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 4,257
Midwest USA
LoneRanger Offline
LoneRanger  Offline
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Posts: 4,257
Midwest USA
My money would be on Stanadyne being the superior product, but who knows.



'09 Subaru Forester ...................(QS HM 5W30)
'16 Moto Guzzi Stelvio 1200 .....(ENI i-Ride PG 10W60)
Re: Winter Diesel additive gelling test [Re: PiperOne] #4586685
11/27/17 03:23 PM
11/27/17 03:23 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 795
Romania
Andy636 Offline
Andy636  Offline
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 795
Romania
Drop 1 quart of methanol for every 10-15 gallons of diesel and you will never have any gelling problems.

Re: Winter Diesel additive gelling test [Re: Andy636] #4586756
11/27/17 04:30 PM
11/27/17 04:30 PM
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 203
A Highway Near You
PiperOne Offline OP
PiperOne  Offline OP
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 203
A Highway Near You
Originally Posted By: Andy636
Drop 1 quart of methanol for every 10-15 gallons of diesel and you will never have any gelling problems.


No gelling problems...but now you have something in your fuel that emulsifies water into the fuel. I'd rather have a proper demulsifier (if needed) that helps the water fall out so it can be collected in the fuel/water separator before it gets to my expensive common rail type injectors.


HDEO in Diesel Engines. No spark plugs here.
Re: Winter Diesel additive gelling test [Re: PiperOne] #4586908
11/27/17 07:59 PM
11/27/17 07:59 PM
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 2,093
Saskatchewan, Canada
Johnny2Bad Offline
Johnny2Bad  Offline
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Posts: 2,093
Saskatchewan, Canada
Ask your fuel supplier when they have (or will) switch to winter formula. That works most of the time.

However there is a state that is near freezing (0C 32F) where diesel fuel issues are prevalent. It's not a temperature-gelling condition, it's more moisture related. That's when you need the aftermarket additives.


'57 FL Straight 50 wt
'90 Miata 1.8L w/Rotrex Supercharger [Mobil1 0W-40]
'96 Ram 1500 [3.7L Mobil1 0W-20 / 1L 15W-50]
'01 PT Cruiser [Mobil1 0W-40]
Re: Winter Diesel additive gelling test [Re: PiperOne] #4587002
11/27/17 09:16 PM
11/27/17 09:16 PM
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 6,432
Waco, TX
Linctex Online content
Linctex  Online Content
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 6,432
Waco, TX
Hoe will you simulate gelling?

Most chest freezers don't get much colder than 0*F... and I don't think any diesel gels at that temp.


"The evidence demands a verdict".
(Re:VOA)"it's nearly impossible to actually know the particular additives that are in there at what concentrations."
Re: Winter Diesel additive gelling test [Re: Linctex] #4587433
11/28/17 11:50 AM
11/28/17 11:50 AM
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 203
A Highway Near You
PiperOne Offline OP
PiperOne  Offline OP
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 203
A Highway Near You
My hope is...because the fuel was purchased from someplace where it doesn't get cold (El Paso TX)..and was purchased in the warmer months..that it has not been blended in any way with anything to prevent gelling. I'm going to rely on good old fashioned Canadian cold weather to hopefully push it past its gel point. One of the other reasons I want to do this is to see if it does indeed gel up. Much like the hysteria that can surround motor oils, there are many that believe that gelling up is a HUGE problem and buying fuel even a few hundred miles south of where you will end up is dangerous. I don't believe that level of hype, in fact, I think a lot of times gelling up is actually other fuel system issues..like water that freezes.

So basically this test will be a very extreme set of circumstances..summer fuel blend from a very hot locale...transported to deep winter. In real life would this ever happen...highly doubtful. I just want to see what happens to the original fuel and what some of the popular additives do to it. I will say this..when I was pouring it out into the storage tank it was about 40F..and it poured like a very thin hydraulic oil...not like fuel..so hopefully it will work for the test.

And again...I DON'T have a gelling problem...it's just something I'm going to do for fun.


HDEO in Diesel Engines. No spark plugs here.
Re: Winter Diesel additive gelling test [Re: PiperOne] #4589822
11/30/17 01:20 PM
11/30/17 01:20 PM
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 1,103
upstate NY
dustyroads Offline
dustyroads  Offline
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 1,103
upstate NY
No harm in experimenting. I would be more interested in how they perform with a known quantity of water in them, but I don't know how much would be needed or how to go about it.

Howes and Power Service have never let me down in any way, but in the early 2000s I tried FPPF Polar Power and sheesh....plugged fuel filters over and over. The fuel never gelled, but ice crystals were a problem after every cold weather shut down. I would park for 8-12 hours (engine off), and within a few miles of driving I was stopped to change the fuel filter. After that one filter change, I was good to go until the next day. Changing the fuel filter was fairly quick and easy on an N14 Cummins but still not my idea of a good time. Howes and Power Service have never put me through that, no matter how cold or where I bought my fuel.

I don't mess around with winter. I make the assumption that any fuel I buy could be carrying excessive water (it seems almost certain in Houston) and I treat my fuel appropriately, but not excessively. I don't put all my trust in the fuel tanker driver putting in additives or the quality of what they do put in. There's too much at stake.


2013 F150 XLT 5.0 4X4 101k miles
Edge 5W-30 / Fram 10575
Re: Winter Diesel additive gelling test [Re: PiperOne] #4624866
01/05/18 12:54 PM
01/05/18 12:54 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 7,545
Indianapolis, IN
dnewton3 Offline
dnewton3  Offline
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Posts: 7,545
Indianapolis, IN
Originally Posted By: PiperOne
Originally Posted By: Andy636
Drop 1 quart of methanol for every 10-15 gallons of diesel and you will never have any gelling problems.


No gelling problems...but now you have something in your fuel that emulsifies water into the fuel. I'd rather have a proper demulsifier (if needed) that helps the water fall out so it can be collected in the fuel/water separator before it gets to my expensive common rail type injectors.


I'm the kind of person that likes a large amount of data to make decisions. That in mind, I've actually called PowerService and Howes about this (Stanadyne never returned my calls).

I did also find this link.
http://www.ezoil.com/resources-diesel-fuel-additives-emulsification-vs.-demulsification
What I like about this link is that, even though it's part of a product sales site, they given a very even and broad answer to the question about emulsification/demulsification. Just like everything else in life, there is no "best". There are pros/cons to both emulsification and demulsification additives and processes. There is no "best" answer for all applications regarding removing moisture; you need to assess the conditions of fuel, and operation, storage, etc.

After speaking with a chemical engineer at PowerService, I've decided that it's not worth worrying about. The big three (PowerService, Howes and Stanadyne) all make good products that are tailored to specific conditions. The better you research your application and define your conditions, the easier you'll find a product that will work for your concerns. I used to believe that demulsification was the only answer to all things; now I realize that's not true at all, and there are challenges with demulsification I was not aware of until I researched it.


Funny thing is that anti-gel additives in diesel supplements don't assure a final value of "x" degrees of anti-gel performance. What they do is "add" to the value of the fuel already being used. Example:
Say you choose Stanadyne and their product offers a 25 degree improvement in cloud-point. What that means is that whatever fuel cloud point exists, it will improve by 25 degrees. If your chosen fuel source clouds at 20F degrees, the additive will improve it to -5F. If your fuel is only good to 50F degrees at cloud point, it will only drop to +25F deg with the additive. Starting with winterized fuels helps the additive product take your cloud point deeper into the cold range. (note: cloud point, plug point, etc are terms for the same conditions). The anti-gel additives suppress the cloud points by a magnitude of improvement, not final value. If you read the marketing info closely for these products, you can even see they call them "improvements" and not stagnant "values". Also, these improvements are based upon proper use of ratio; more or less product in mix will alter this CPP ratio.

Some of the products are what I'd call "full service" additives; they address not only gelling of fuel, but have additives for lubricity, cleaners, anti-foam agents, cetane, etc. Other products are only specific to one or two tasks. You need to carefully research the choices from each brand to know what you're getting.
Example: the "silver bottle" (Diesel Kleen) from PowerService is similar to their "white bottle" (Diesel Fuel Supplement) in terms of addressing lubricity, cleaners, etc, except that the white bottle has the addition of an anti-gel additive. That anti-gel additive takes up space in the formulation; leaves less room of other things by volume and solubility. Therefore the "silver bottle" can hold more cetane improver and detergent, because it has zero anti-gel in it. The white bottle has less cetane improver because it has the added benefit of anti-gel. IOW - the more you tasks you assign to the product, the more of a compromise it becomes.
Example: Stanadyne has a "full service" product called "Performance Formula". But they also offer stuff that addresses singular things as well.
And again, "full service" products are a nice compromise, but they don't do anything "best". They are a good jack-of-all-trades-and-master-of-none approach.


Caveat Emptor!

.


The act of preventative maintenance, in and of itself, is FAR MORE important than brand/grade/base choices among lubes and filters.
- under maintaining something is akin to abuse/neglect; that can kill equipment by shortening the lifespan
- over maintaining something has never been proven to be anything but a waste of time and money
Re: Winter Diesel additive gelling test [Re: PiperOne] #4625858
01/06/18 01:02 PM
01/06/18 01:02 PM
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 203
A Highway Near You
PiperOne Offline OP
PiperOne  Offline OP
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 203
A Highway Near You
"Test" is done, I will post a thread very soon.

I did want to comment on dnewton3's post. The ez oil link was an interesting read...but, as noted, it is marketing for a product THEY sell. I do know this....the engine OE's and folks that make the fuel injectors....seem to prefer de-mulsifiers by a pretty good count (eg. GM specifically says no emulsifiers for the Duramax). I would have no issue running an emulsifier in an older IDI or other lower pressure old style system that (usually) has pretty cheap injectors.

I will also add...I don't regularly use additives...and in many years and millions of miles I've never had fuel system issues. I gelled up once because I had B100 in the tank and we had a sudden cold snap. A 10% kerosene solution got the truck running.

I carry an antigel in the trucks and it gets used if more southern latitude fuels have to travel north into much colder weather.


Caveat Emptor indeed!!


HDEO in Diesel Engines. No spark plugs here.
Re: Winter Diesel additive gelling test [Re: PiperOne] #4627792
01/08/18 07:51 AM
01/08/18 07:51 AM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 7,545
Indianapolis, IN
dnewton3 Offline
dnewton3  Offline
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 7,545
Indianapolis, IN
That link I provided is not really sales marketing from E-Zoil; not that I can tell. I think it is a copy/paste on their site from another source; they credit the paper (and others) at the bottom of the link, but I could not get the page to open for that particular paper.

I like the link simply because it seems to have a "pros/cons" approach and not a "this is great and everything else you'll ever buy from someone else is horrid ...." approach. The info does not push anything as right or wrong, but shows how/why certain conditions may benefit from different approaches. It seems far more honest than typical marketing hype, if you ask me.


Last edited by dnewton3; 01/08/18 07:52 AM.

The act of preventative maintenance, in and of itself, is FAR MORE important than brand/grade/base choices among lubes and filters.
- under maintaining something is akin to abuse/neglect; that can kill equipment by shortening the lifespan
- over maintaining something has never been proven to be anything but a waste of time and money
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