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#4538460 - 10/09/17 08:04 PM Redline updated SDS 90% PAO
spiderbypass Offline


Registered: 02/19/06
Posts: 415
Loc: Stewartstown PA
I know SDS do not show everything in oil composition; but it seems like Redline motor oils are made up primarily pao Basestocks.
https://w3apps.phillips66.com/NetMSDS/ViewPDF.aspx?fileName=828863&Language=EN&IssueDate=9%2f19%2f2017&SubFormat=USDS
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#4538461 - 10/09/17 08:06 PM Re: Redline updated SDS 90% PAO [Re: spiderbypass]
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 36464
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Yup, definitely some MAJOR PAO content going on there.
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#4538464 - 10/09/17 08:10 PM Re: Redline updated SDS 90% PAO [Re: spiderbypass]
StevieC Offline


Registered: 08/21/08
Posts: 17116
Loc: Ontario, Canada
I was using Redline in the Journey when it was first new because I was using up some in my stash before going back to Amsoil and I wasn't getting good UOA's from it in that engine. I thought it was mainly POE. Guess it's not. shrug Whatever the formula it is it didn't agree with the conditions my engine gave it. Besides the cost went up compared to Amsoil for me so that was an automatic cross off the list. Well that and I can only get the narrow ended bottles and not the gallon size which is a pain for dumping waste oil back in the containers.


Edited by StevieC (10/09/17 08:11 PM)
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#4538468 - 10/09/17 08:15 PM Re: Redline updated SDS 90% PAO [Re: spiderbypass]
aquariuscsm Offline


Registered: 12/30/06
Posts: 18178
Loc: Dallas,Tx USA
I,too thought it was an ester based oil. Redline didn't pull an "RP" when they got bought out and cheapen their formula did they? Seems every time an indie company goes corporate the formula gets cheapened out (I'm referring to all products,not just oil).
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#4538474 - 10/09/17 08:23 PM Re: Redline updated SDS 90% PAO [Re: aquariuscsm]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 24620
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
I can't speak to many years ago, but I had thought that it was a primarily PAO base, with significant enough ester content to market it with respect to that aspect.
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#4538477 - 10/09/17 08:25 PM Re: Redline updated SDS 90% PAO [Re: Garak]
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 36464
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Garak
I can't speak to many years ago, but I had thought that it was a primarily PAO base, with significant enough ester content to market it with respect to that aspect.


That was my impression as well.
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#4538492 - 10/09/17 08:38 PM Re: Redline updated SDS 90% PAO [Re: spiderbypass]
d00df00d Offline


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 11215
Loc: PA
Isn't it... not possible/desirable to make an engine oil primarily with esters? AFAIK an oil like that would be terrible when cold, need very short OCIs, etc.

Rumors and speculation that Red Line was primarily PAO are years old. I never knew (nor would I have imagined) it'd be 90%, but I'm not hugely surprised.

Something to remember: even if the ester content is 10% or less, that doesn't mean esters aren't the party piece in the formulation. Elemental additives account for MUCH less of the formulation than that, and they're pretty important!
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#4538519 - 10/09/17 09:06 PM Re: Redline updated SDS 90% PAO [Re: d00df00d]
JHZR2 Offline



Registered: 12/14/02
Posts: 41802
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Isn't it... not possible/desirable to make an engine oil primarily with esters? AFAIK an oil like that would be terrible when cold, need very short OCIs, etc.

Rumors and speculation that Red Line was primarily PAO are years old. I never knew (nor would I have imagined) it'd be 90%, but I'm not hugely surprised.

Something to remember: even if the ester content is 10% or less, that doesn't mean esters aren't the party piece in the formulation. Elemental additives account for MUCH less of the formulation than that, and they're pretty important!


+1 to all of this.

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#4538529 - 10/09/17 09:23 PM Re: Redline updated SDS 90% PAO [Re: spiderbypass]
NickT29 Offline


Registered: 05/23/17
Posts: 10
Loc: USA
The link isn't working for me, but I just want to point out that the percentages reflected on Safety Data Sheets are usually not reflective of exact amounts mixed into the finished product. Oil companies claim that their formulations are trade secrets, and according to OSHA the percentages just have to be ranges.

"The concentration (exact percentages) of each ingredient must be specified except concentration ranges may be used in the following situations:
A trade secret claim is made,
There is batch-to-batch variation, or
The SDS is used for a group of substantially similar mixtures.
Chemicals where a trade secret is claimed"

https://www.osha.gov/Publications/OSHA3514.html

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#4538562 - 10/09/17 10:12 PM Re: Redline updated SDS 90% PAO [Re: NickT29]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 19042
Loc: Iowegia - USA
Originally Posted By: NickT29
The link isn't working for me, but I just want to point out that the percentages reflected on Safety Data Sheets are usually not reflective of exact amounts mixed into the finished product. Oil companies claim that their formulations are trade secrets, and according to OSHA the percentages just have to be ranges.

"The concentration (exact percentages) of each ingredient must be specified except concentration ranges may be used in the following situations:
A trade secret claim is made,
There is batch-to-batch variation, or
The SDS is used for a group of substantially similar mixtures.
Chemicals where a trade secret is claimed"

https://www.osha.gov/Publications/OSHA3514.html



Exactly.

Also notice what else is missing in the MSDS:

Redline uses anywhere from 120 ppm to 600 of moly (MoDTC) in their formulations but no mention is made of MoDTC's.

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#4538587 - 10/09/17 11:02 PM Re: Redline updated SDS 90% PAO [Re: MolaKule]
NickT29 Offline


Registered: 05/23/17
Posts: 10
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Originally Posted By: NickT29
The link isn't working for me, but I just want to point out that the percentages reflected on Safety Data Sheets are usually not reflective of exact amounts mixed into the finished product. Oil companies claim that their formulations are trade secrets, and according to OSHA the percentages just have to be ranges.

"The concentration (exact percentages) of each ingredient must be specified except concentration ranges may be used in the following situations:
A trade secret claim is made,
There is batch-to-batch variation, or
The SDS is used for a group of substantially similar mixtures.
Chemicals where a trade secret is claimed"

https://www.osha.gov/Publications/OSHA3514.html



Exactly.

Also notice what else is missing in the MSDS:

Redline uses anywhere from 120 ppm to 600 of moly (MoDTC) in their formulations but no mention is made of MoDTC's.


In that case, Iím unsure if Moly needs to be listed at all. As I assume it isnít enough of a hazard to human health considering the total amount in a given volume of oil to be required to be on SDS sheets. However, when taking a look at another product like Mobil 1 High Mileage, youíll see two items listed, PAO, and a type of zinc that is listed as a low percentage number but must be toxic enough in a given volume to need to be listed.

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#4538592 - 10/09/17 11:14 PM Re: Redline updated SDS 90% PAO [Re: spiderbypass]
PimTac Offline


Registered: 03/04/17
Posts: 4329
Loc: Soviet State of Washington
I don't think I've seen a MSDS or SDS that listed the additives. Calciums, phosphorus, moly, boron etc. It probably goes back to the proprietary formula the company does not wish to reveal.
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#4538598 - 10/09/17 11:20 PM Re: Redline updated SDS 90% PAO [Re: spiderbypass]
Ammofirst Offline


Registered: 06/22/17
Posts: 353
Loc: Western usa
This is all news to me. I always thought Redlines claim to fame was its status as a class V oil. Which in turn I thought meant a "primarily" ester based oil. I Also got the impression it was generally held in higher regard than amsoil when used in racing / high performance / high rpm / high heat applications. Who acquired them ? I can't remember. Did the formulation change post acquisition?

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#4538612 - 10/09/17 11:32 PM Re: Redline updated SDS 90% PAO [Re: spiderbypass]
Nickdfresh Offline


Registered: 03/15/06
Posts: 5615
Loc: Buffalo, NY
This is nothing new, it's been stated here that Redline's main line of oils is and always has been PAO for like a decade. The POE is reserved for their ultra-expensive racing oils, but we have some shill fanbois that will argue even this...

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#4538792 - 10/10/17 07:39 AM Re: Redline updated SDS 90% PAO [Re: Nickdfresh]
Pablo Offline


Registered: 10/28/02
Posts: 47277
Loc: Duvall WA - Pacific NW USA
Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
This is nothing new, it's been stated here that Redline's main line of oils is and always has been PAO for like a decade. The POE is reserved for their ultra-expensive racing oils, but we have some shill fanbois that will argue even this...


This. I have, through the years, posted Redline is 50-90% PAO and people accused me of lying, making it up, hyping Amsoil (ok yes), or just being generally nuts (true). Some of the posts in this thread also make the point. Not really feasible and what $20-30 qt?

Lastly, so what? Use good oil. Don't stress about the component parts.
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