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GM wants a standard high octane gas #4531884
10/02/17 08:19 AM
10/02/17 08:19 AM
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 5,037
The Midwest
skyactiv Offline OP
skyactiv  Offline OP
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 5,037
The Midwest
Like it or not, I think the days of 87 and 85 octane gasoline are going to be a thing of the past. Exactly when, who knows? For the gasoline engine to live on, it needs to happen.
The upcoming engines used to achieve the EPA 54.5 MPG mandate by 2025 won't allow new gasoline vehicles to run on 87 octane. There are two work arounds I thought up to keep 87 and 85 octane available:
Nozzle size and dyed gas. Dye the lower octanes and install a device in the newer vehicles that can see detect the dyed low octane fuels. Use a smaller nozzle for the new high octane gasoline. The DEF nozzle size as an example.

Skip to 5:19 and listen to what this GM VP of propulsion systems has to say.



Wife: 15' Audi A4 quattro 6 speed manual
Me: 13' VW GTI 3 door 6 speed manual
Wanted: 2019 Ford Ranger
Re: GM wants a standard high octane gas [Re: skyactiv] #4531889
10/02/17 08:27 AM
10/02/17 08:27 AM
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 4,559
Storrs, Connecticut
jeepman3071 Offline
jeepman3071  Offline
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 4,559
Storrs, Connecticut
I can see some vehicles REQUIRING higher octane fuel, and maybe having different nozzles, but I doubt 87 will go away anytime soon. Way too many vehicles on the road where the owners manual says to run only 87.

It is similar to the whole electric vehicles becoming mandated argument. Will they become more popular? Yes. Will they be forced to replace all current gasoline vehicles on the road? Not feasible.


I'm sure GM wants a lot of things.


2000 Jeep Cherokee 4.0L (181k) - Pennzoil 10w30, Napa Gold 1516, Magnefine trans filter
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Re: GM wants a standard high octane gas [Re: skyactiv] #4531912
10/02/17 08:46 AM
10/02/17 08:46 AM
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 5,037
The Midwest
skyactiv Offline OP
skyactiv  Offline OP
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 5,037
The Midwest
GM could want a higher standard octane across the board so they don't need to deal with boneheads who put in 87 octane in a 12:1 compression engine with turbocharging. The gas vehicle of the future can't handle 87 octane.
That is why I'm suggesting a smaller nozzle for the upcoming vehicles.
GM and other auto makers might argue that any old engine can run just fine on a higher octane gas. A standard higher octane fuel wouldn't be priced like todays 91/93 octane gasolines.
Could even dye the new high octane fuel, but I'd rather have the lower octane grades dyed as it adds cost.


Wife: 15' Audi A4 quattro 6 speed manual
Me: 13' VW GTI 3 door 6 speed manual
Wanted: 2019 Ford Ranger
Re: GM wants a standard high octane gas [Re: skyactiv] #4531918
10/02/17 08:51 AM
10/02/17 08:51 AM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 42,301
New Jersey
JHZR2 Offline
JHZR2  Offline
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 42,301
New Jersey
We force this on ourselves as much as anything else. "Need" a v6+/300 hp/<7sec 0-60 in order to safely merge on the highway? "Need" to pull a 15000 lb trailer at 80 mph up a mountain?

There have been some pretty impressive advances in engines, seemingly more so this decade than the last 20-30 (should we say since 1973ish/CAA?). But most of that is just not necessary other than to meet rational irrationality.

Re: GM wants a standard high octane gas [Re: jeepman3071] #4531933
10/02/17 09:24 AM
10/02/17 09:24 AM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,524
Wet side WA
JohnnyJohnson Online content
JohnnyJohnson  Online Content
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,524
Wet side WA
Originally Posted By: jeepman3071
I can see some vehicles REQUIRING higher octane fuel, and maybe having different nozzles, but I doubt 87 will go away anytime soon. Way too many vehicles on the road where the owners manual says to run only 87.

It is similar to the whole electric vehicles becoming mandated argument. Will they become more popular? Yes. Will they be forced to replace all current gasoline vehicles on the road? Not feasible.


I'm sure GM wants a lot of things.


It won't because there making to much money off of it.


2004 Corolla 126813
Out: VML 5w-30 TG4967 OCI 5007 Miles
In: EDGE EP 5W-30 Bosch 3311 122537 7-18-18
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Re: GM wants a standard high octane gas [Re: skyactiv] #4531951
10/02/17 09:39 AM
10/02/17 09:39 AM
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 1,198
Campbellsville, KY
Alex_V Offline
Alex_V  Offline
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 1,198
Campbellsville, KY
Seems like at least a partly logical change to make.

Coming from someone that has bought less than 50 gallons of regular in the last 5+ years, I'd question if we can't just move the whole octane scale up. It's not like engines don't run cleaner and longer on better gas. Isn't that one of the goals here?


To quote a friend, "Synthetics, man."

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Re: GM wants a standard high octane gas [Re: skyactiv] #4531961
10/02/17 09:49 AM
10/02/17 09:49 AM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,183
Midwest, Illinois
beanoil Offline
beanoil  Offline
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,183
Midwest, Illinois


Already there. GovMotors needs to say less and R&D more.


beanoil: Tough under heat, real dirty afterwards.
Re: GM wants a standard high octane gas [Re: Alex_V] #4531969
10/02/17 10:08 AM
10/02/17 10:08 AM
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 318
NC
fenixguy Offline
fenixguy  Offline
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 318
NC
Originally Posted By: Alex_V
It's not like engines don't run cleaner and longer on better gas.


Explain how mid-grade or premium is "better" than 87. Better at what in a vehicle that doesn't require it? Seriously asking.

Last edited by fenixguy; 10/02/17 10:08 AM.

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Re: GM wants a standard high octane gas [Re: JHZR2] #4531973
10/02/17 10:17 AM
10/02/17 10:17 AM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,231
Where the wind comes sweepin'
Reddy45 Offline
Reddy45  Offline
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,231
Where the wind comes sweepin'
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
We force this on ourselves as much as anything else. "Need" a v6+/300 hp/<7sec 0-60 in order to safely merge on the highway? "Need" to pull a 15000 lb trailer at 80 mph up a mountain?

There have been some pretty impressive advances in engines, seemingly more so this decade than the last 20-30 (should we say since 1973ish/CAA?). But most of that is just not necessary other than to meet rational irrationality.


Ditto. We got around just fine when it was "impressive" for a sports car to have 250HP.


Why doesn't GM just make their cars run on E85, which has an octane rating of 105?

Re: GM wants a standard high octane gas [Re: skyactiv] #4531985
10/02/17 10:49 AM
10/02/17 10:49 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,791
Southeast Alabama
SrDriver Offline
SrDriver  Offline
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,791
Southeast Alabama
I have a 2018 KIA Sorento V-6 and as I recall the compression ratio is 11.5 to 1. It runs just fine on 87 octane. Owners manual says it is OK for usage. I had a 2015 Sorento V-6 and it had the same compression ratio. Used 97 octane with no issues.

Am sure that there are other engines that have around the same compression ratio too that use 87 octane just fine.

Re: GM wants a standard high octane gas [Re: skyactiv] #4531993
10/02/17 10:56 AM
10/02/17 10:56 AM
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 718
Canada
i_hate_autofraud Offline
i_hate_autofraud  Offline
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 718
Canada


There comes a point to get higher MPGs and cleaner running engines, higher compression
across the board is needed! Thus hi octane gas! There's only so far we can go with lower comp engines
and low octane gas we all love!

In the 80's a noticed my commute into the big city that a blanket of brown smog hung over the
city visible from 30 miles away going up 1,000 ft to 1,500, above that cleaner air!

Last week, just happened to do the same drive, the old time smog blanket was gone! nice!
Looks like emission controls work for real now! LOL smile

Re: GM wants a standard high octane gas [Re: Reddy45] #4532023
10/02/17 11:37 AM
10/02/17 11:37 AM
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 4,438
New England
Virtus_Probi Offline
Virtus_Probi  Offline
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 4,438
New England
Originally Posted By: Reddy45
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
We force this on ourselves as much as anything else. "Need" a v6+/300 hp/<7sec 0-60 in order to safely merge on the highway? "Need" to pull a 15000 lb trailer at 80 mph up a mountain?

There have been some pretty impressive advances in engines, seemingly more so this decade than the last 20-30 (should we say since 1973ish/CAA?). But most of that is just not necessary other than to meet rational irrationality.


Ditto. We got around just fine when it was "impressive" for a sports car to have 250HP.


Why doesn't GM just make their cars run on E85, which has an octane rating of 105?


They would probably have to pay to have stations in the Northeast US start carrying E85 so they could sell those cars here, at the very least...basically nonexistent up here.


2014 Forester XT, 90000 miles
Last Change;
M1 5W30 d1G2
Tokyo Roki 15208AA170 filter
Re: GM wants a standard high octane gas [Re: skyactiv] #4532033
10/02/17 12:01 PM
10/02/17 12:01 PM
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,684
'murica
Ethan1 Offline
Ethan1  Offline
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,684
'murica
No dye is needed. Cars can already calculate the octane of the gas in their tanks. You can read the calculated octane rating with a scan tool on some vehicles.

Re: GM wants a standard high octane gas [Re: JHZR2] #4532047
10/02/17 12:22 PM
10/02/17 12:22 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,036
Elizabeth. Colorado
c502cid Offline
c502cid  Offline
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,036
Elizabeth. Colorado
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
We force this on ourselves as much as anything else. "Need" a v6+/300 hp/<7sec 0-60 in order to safely merge on the highway? "Need" to pull a 15000 lb trailer at 80 mph up a mountain?

There have been some pretty impressive advances in engines, seemingly more so this decade than the last 20-30 (should we say since 1973ish/CAA?). But most of that is just not necessary other than to meet rational irrationality.


I think having an east coast view of the world and forcing me to meet their conclusions of what is rational or not would be a delightful way to live. I mean lets take that to other levels too, what else do you deem rational for me? Please enlighten us with your worldly views.


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Re: GM wants a standard high octane gas [Re: skyactiv] #4532060
10/02/17 12:40 PM
10/02/17 12:40 PM
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 3,566
MN
oil_film_movies Offline
oil_film_movies  Offline
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 3,566
MN
One good alternative is to have a 2nd smaller tank that holds methanol or ethanol to inject only during periods of high torque loading when knocking might occur. From "If an appropriate amount of
ethanol from a second tank is directly injected into the cylinder of a spark-ignition
gasoline engine at high load, the resulting prevention of knock allows for both increased
compression ratio and increased turbocharging [Cohn]."
---- https://energy.mit.edu/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/MIT-LFEE-08-001-RP.pdf

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