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Diesel Fuel Lubricity Additives - Pipeline bans #4512013
09/10/17 03:28 AM
09/10/17 03:28 AM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 40,834
'Stralia
Shannow Offline OP
Shannow  Offline OP
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 40,834
'Stralia
Have mentioned before that the Colorado has low speed "knock", on initial acceleration when warmed up, so was reviewing the use of cetane improvers in the Common Rail diesels...(btw, with Morey's cetane additive that I used to use in the Nissan, the knock is gone).

But I came across the following article, rebutting another article about additisation of diesel fuels...

http://fleetowner.com/site-files/fleetow...le%209-1-12.pdf

Quote:
POINT SEVEN: As a diesel fuel additive supplier, Amalgamated, Inc agrees completely with the need for Deposit Control Additives (Detergents) in all diesel fuels. This is especially true when considering the new Common Rail Fuel Injector (CRFI) engines being manufactured today.

But, it is misleading to infer that these additives will ever be utilized and added by the petroleum refineries (especially at the required high IDID dosage rates for CRFI engines) or any intermediate terminal operators. Because the major pipeline operators controlling fuel distributions throughout the United States and North America are so concerned with carryover contamination to jet fuel deliveries, they do not allow diesel fuels with such chemistries to be put in their pipelines. And, there is no indication that says this position will change anytime soon.

Accordingly, the real truth is diesel fuel Deposit Control Additives (Detergents) will have to be added very close to the point of sale if not at the point of fuel consumption and most likely this task will need to be taken on by the ultimate diesel fuel user.


which made sense, and piqued my interest...and I found this

http://forum.oiltechtalk.com/attachments/honeywellulsdresearch.pdf

goes into details as to why addition at the refinery is a poor choice...
* additive gets consumed during transport, when the additive is in contact with the pipe walls (need more additive).
* pipelines are metallic, so the additives work on the pipeline material, just like they are supposed to in your engine.

and

Quote:
Option 1 Addition at the Refinery
This seems the simplest and least costly solution to add the lubricity additives to the fuels. But there are several issues that make this choice very unpopular. If the additive is added at the refinery, it does its job in the pipeline and a portion of the additive gets used up before it reaches the terminal. This means either over-treatment at the refinery or re-treatment at the terminal to get the fuels lubricity back to spec. Even a bigger issue is Trail-back.

Lubricity improver Trail-back issue, contaminating jet and other products

Many of the lubricity additives are surface-active materials. They work by bonding to metal surfaces Pipelines present miles of metal surfaces. Fear is that the additive will be lost to the pipe walls Of course Loss of lubricity performance in the diesel but the big questions is where will the additive go and that it will contaminate jet. Most of the USA pipelines have set the policy not to allow lubricity improver in their pipeline.


Research on FAME (Fatty Acid Methyl Este...rmal stability.

Last edited by Shannow; 09/10/17 03:34 AM.
Re: Diesel Fuel Lubricity Additives - Pipeline bans [Re: Shannow] #4512020
09/10/17 04:41 AM
09/10/17 04:41 AM
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 1,083
Europe
SonofJoe Offline
SonofJoe  Offline
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 1,083
Europe
I refined my last barrel of oil in 1983 and even back then, putting any potentially surface active additives in multi-purpose fuel pipelines was a real big deal.

I can't remember which additive it was now (it might have been the anti-static additive used in jet fuel?) but there were always concerns that this additive would remove rust for the inside of the pipeline and was effectively banned.

The craze for fuel 'performance' additives (as opposed to the usual stuff like TEL and Diesel WCMs) kicked off here in the mid 80s. As I recall additive pack addition was always done at the road tanker loading rack by-passing all pipeline transport.

Last edited by SonofJoe; 09/10/17 04:42 AM.
Re: Diesel Fuel Lubricity Additives - Pipeline bans [Re: Shannow] #4512093
09/10/17 08:48 AM
09/10/17 08:48 AM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 42,085
New Jersey
JHZR2 Offline
JHZR2  Offline
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 42,085
New Jersey
Originally Posted By: Shannow

goes into details as to why addition at the refinery is a poor choice...
* additive gets consumed during transport, when the additive is in contact with the pipe walls (need more additive).
* pipelines are metallic, so the additives work on the pipeline material, just like they are supposed to in your engine.


This is an interesting discussion.

IMO its not as much an issue of it going onto the walls and staying there doing anything real... Its not "consumed", I suspect... Its a matter of that there is some adsorption that occurs, which is by design, and then the release into a subsequent product, due to the equilibrium concentrations/adsorption isotherms that govern how much of a product goes onto the surface based upon bulk concentration.

It makes total sense, especially if pipelines are transitioned rapidly from one product to another. Something one doesn't think about every day though.

Interesting find!

Re: Diesel Fuel Lubricity Additives - Pipeline bans [Re: Shannow] #4512103
09/10/17 08:59 AM
09/10/17 08:59 AM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,208
Wet side WA
JohnnyJohnson Offline
JohnnyJohnson  Offline
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,208
Wet side WA
Is this really an issue? All pipelines pump to tanks farms. The tanks farm deliver it to people across their truck racks. That seems like the logical place to ad it. We're being played by big oil again!


2004 Corolla 124686
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Re: Diesel Fuel Lubricity Additives - Pipeline bans [Re: Shannow] #4512203
09/10/17 10:43 AM
09/10/17 10:43 AM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,962
Cincinnati, OH, USA
bullwinkle Offline
bullwinkle  Offline
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,962
Cincinnati, OH, USA
Makes me wonder if all ULSD is created equal-if the no name (around here Kroger, UDF, and other unbranded diesel) is as good as BP, Shell, etc. in the lubricity dept. I've been adding used & new non-syn motor oil, TCW-3 2 stroke oil, even some ATF to the Stanadyne IP IDI diesels in my sig, and I've still had intermittent IP malfunctions, generally on cold starts, with them hanging up. Wonder if fuel can be tested, and how much of an issue is low lubricity for a CR diesel?


06 Ram 3500 CTD 4X4(FG Venturi), 93 GMC C3500 6.2, 89 F-450 7.3, 98 XJ 4.0(XG8A), 05 xB(XG3600), 18 Transit 3.7, 03 Merc Grand Marquis 4.6 2V(XG2)
Re: Diesel Fuel Lubricity Additives - Pipeline bans [Re: Shannow] #4512320
09/10/17 01:04 PM
09/10/17 01:04 PM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,139
USA
ArcticDriver Offline
ArcticDriver  Offline
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,139
USA
Some incorrect assumption being made here.

Only the initial diesel treatment occure at the Refinery.
The proprietary additizing occurs at the terminal (after exiting the pipeline).

And I just fueled up here in Tampa last week post-Houston hurricane and it was [censored]. It took 4 times the recommended ratio of Stanadyne Performance to smooth it out.

I filled up a clear jar at the same time and there is no contaminant or sign of water. It is just minimally additized [censored] diesel from Shell. A station I have always found to have excellent diesel.

The aftermath of these hurricanes is resulting in marginal fuel quality.


Multiple Diesel and Gasoline vehicles
Re: Diesel Fuel Lubricity Additives - Pipeline bans [Re: ArcticDriver] #4512396
09/10/17 03:06 PM
09/10/17 03:06 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 4,941
Houston, Texas
motor_oil_madman Offline
motor_oil_madman  Offline
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 4,941
Houston, Texas
Originally Posted By: ArcticDriver
Some incorrect assumption being made here.

Only the initial diesel treatment occure at the Refinery.
The proprietary additizing occurs at the terminal (after exiting the pipeline).

And I just fueled up here in Tampa last week post-Houston hurricane and it was [censored]. It took 4 times the recommended ratio of Stanadyne Performance to smooth it out.

I filled up a clear jar at the same time and there is no contaminant or sign of water. It is just minimally additized [censored] diesel from Shell. A station I have always found to have excellent diesel.

The aftermath of these hurricanes is resulting in marginal fuel quality.


All this time, people said the lubricity additives were added to the fuel on the tanker truck

So really it's just the same as gasoline. Only the detergents are added. The lubricity level Is made with the diesel fuel. I wonder why they would skimp on this though.


2007.5 dodge cummins 6.7 liter. Chevron Delo400 15w40. 7000 mile or 250-300hr intervals.

Re: Diesel Fuel Lubricity Additives - Pipeline bans [Re: motor_oil_madman] #4512419
09/10/17 03:40 PM
09/10/17 03:40 PM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,139
USA
ArcticDriver Offline
ArcticDriver  Offline
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,139
USA
Originally Posted By: motor_oil_madman
Originally Posted By: ArcticDriver
Some incorrect assumption being made here.

Only the initial diesel treatment occure at the Refinery.
The proprietary additizing occurs at the terminal (after exiting the pipeline).

And I just fueled up here in Tampa last week post-Houston hurricane and it was [censored]. It took 4 times the recommended ratio of Stanadyne Performance to smooth it out.

I filled up a clear jar at the same time and there is no contaminant or sign of water. It is just minimally additized [censored] diesel from Shell. A station I have always found to have excellent diesel.

The aftermath of these hurricanes is resulting in marginal fuel quality.


All this time, people said the lubricity additives were added to the fuel on the tanker truck

So really it's just the same as gasoline. Only the detergents are added. The lubricity level Is made with the diesel fuel. I wonder why they would skimp on this though.


No you are not correct.

Lubricity is only partially a factor of the crude oils used at the refinery in the distillation preocess. That is why ULSD requires an additional additive package.


Multiple Diesel and Gasoline vehicles
Re: Diesel Fuel Lubricity Additives - Pipeline bans [Re: Shannow] #4512423
09/10/17 03:51 PM
09/10/17 03:51 PM
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 20,747
Upstate NY
Donald Offline
Donald  Offline
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 20,747
Upstate NY
For the most part lubricity is only important for vehicles with mechanical injector pumps. My 1999 Dodge w/Cummins had a Bosch VP-44.


2015 Subaru Forester 2.5 engine/CVT
2015 Ford F250 w/Powerstroke
2016 Subaru Crosstrek CVT (wife's)
Re: Diesel Fuel Lubricity Additives - Pipeline bans [Re: Donald] #4512430
09/10/17 04:07 PM
09/10/17 04:07 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 40,834
'Stralia
Shannow Offline OP
Shannow  Offline OP
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 40,834
'Stralia
Originally Posted By: Donald
For the most part lubricity is only important for vehicles with mechanical injector pumps. My 1999 Dodge w/Cummins had a Bosch VP-44.



29,000psi fuel pumps definitely require lubrication.

Re: Diesel Fuel Lubricity Additives - Pipeline bans [Re: JHZR2] #4512433
09/10/17 04:10 PM
09/10/17 04:10 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 40,834
'Stralia
Shannow Offline OP
Shannow  Offline OP
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 40,834
'Stralia
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
This is an interesting discussion.

IMO its not as much an issue of it going onto the walls and staying there doing anything real... Its not "consumed", I suspect... Its a matter of that there is some adsorption that occurs, which is by design, and then the release into a subsequent product, due to the equilibrium concentrations/adsorption isotherms that govern how much of a product goes onto the surface based upon bulk concentration.

It makes total sense, especially if pipelines are transitioned rapidly from one product to another. Something one doesn't think about every day though.

Interesting find!


Yeah, I thought that it was too, one of those things that you never think about, but it's obvious when you learn about it...multi product pipelines is interesting.

Re: Diesel Fuel Lubricity Additives - Pipeline bans [Re: Shannow] #4512561
09/10/17 06:28 PM
09/10/17 06:28 PM
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,668
Ottumwa, Iowa
jhellwig Offline
jhellwig  Offline
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,668
Ottumwa, Iowa
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
This is an interesting discussion.

IMO its not as much an issue of it going onto the walls and staying there doing anything real... Its not "consumed", I suspect... Its a matter of that there is some adsorption that occurs, which is by design, and then the release into a subsequent product, due to the equilibrium concentrations/adsorption isotherms that govern how much of a product goes onto the surface based upon bulk concentration.

It makes total sense, especially if pipelines are transitioned rapidly from one product to another. Something one doesn't think about every day though.

Interesting find!


Yeah, I thought that it was too, one of those things that you never think about, but it's obvious when you learn about it...multi product pipelines is interesting.


There isn't much of an issue of product staying in the line on batch changes. The little bit that mixes is cut out and re refined. The reason you can't add anything at the refinery is because of logistics and I think possibly DOT regulations. Way cheaper and easier to add it at the rack. Every terminal would have 10 times the amount of tanks if the refineries were adding stuff to the product. Not every company uses the same addative so you would end up with a tank per specific blend. It would also be a nightmare to meter the product comming out of the pipeline.

My pipeline has product comming from a refinery from one company. That company sells their branded fuel with their spec on additives. They also sell unbranded fuel with many different types and levels of additives depending on what the end user wants. On pipelines with multiple suppliers and end users they trade product often times so fuel made by one companies refinery might be sold as another companies fuel with their addative in it.

I don't have jet going down my pipeline but I know there is a lot more that goes into moving and tanking it than regular fuel. I know it gets filtered heavily comming out of the pipeline and has to sit in the tank a while to let the water come out of it before it can be shipped out.

The one exception that I know of to this is biodiesel. The refiners can put in up to 5% without having to declare it is in the product.

Last edited by jhellwig; 09/10/17 06:31 PM.

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