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New HDEO = Low ZDDP..... possible solution? #4497529
08/25/17 06:47 AM
08/25/17 06:47 AM
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 894
Colorado
BigJohn Offline OP
BigJohn  Offline OP
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 894
Colorado
The source of the data I quote is from pqiadata.org.

I was stunned to see the reduced amount of ZDDP in some of the HDEO's that I have held in high esteem in the past. For instance.....

Delo 400
Zn - 817
P - 779

Delvac 1300
Zn - 884
P - 804

(Both have added Mg and B)


But Rotella and Valvoline and SuperTech, all keep their Zn and P between 1000 and 1199, for a much stouter ZDDP level.

I have read several threads with folks upset over this new generation HDEO and debating whether it is protecting as it should. But for the purpose of posting here, I really want to know everyone's opinions regarding motorcycle engines.

I would also like to know everyone's opinion of a product like ZDDPlus. If one were a die-hard Delvac fan, could a little ZDDPlus be added, bringing the levels back up to the 1200-1500's and rest assured?

I for one have after-market cans on my bikes, without a complicated exhaust system and am not worried about CAT failure, etc.

The newest bike I own is also a 2005 (I've got 7 bikes, 1997-2005) I use to be on the 'synthetic-only band wagon', but in the last couple of years have fed all my machines HDEO.

..................

Last edited by BigJohn; 08/25/17 06:49 AM.

'14 Ram 1500 EcoDiesel 4x4, Delo 5w40
'15 Mercedes ML250, PenEuro 5w30
'05 BMW R1200GS, M1 15w50
'02 Yamaha WR426, RT4 15w40
'05 KTM 950 ADV-S, RT4 15w40
Re: New HDEO = Low ZDDP..... possible solution? [Re: BigJohn] #4497563
08/25/17 07:16 AM
08/25/17 07:16 AM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,564
South Carolina
alarmguy Offline
alarmguy  Offline
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,564
South Carolina
Since you asked for a solution and you want a high zinc oil, simply choose a high zinc oil.

Gone on the days where every HEDO was high zinc.

To the best of my knowledge the new CK4 oils are high zinc.

The new dual rated CK4/SN oils are not high zinc in order to conform to the SN standard.
So just buy a CK4 only oil, not CK4/sn oil.

With that said, the new CK4 standard up to 50% less wear and need to remind everyone that there are elements other then what is tested for in oil.

This mornings thoughts only, since I use a high zinc HEDO 20/50 I havent paid much attention.
(I am trying a low zinc non HEDO as an experiment only, right now)

Last edited by alarmguy; 08/25/17 07:20 AM.

14 Road King (current)
08 VStar 1300 Tourer
07 Suzuki C50
Re: New HDEO = Low ZDDP..... possible solution? [Re: BigJohn] #4497573
08/25/17 07:25 AM
08/25/17 07:25 AM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 2,549
Indiana
Phishin Online content
Phishin  Online Content
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 2,549
Indiana
If you want to add Zinc to oil, I always use RedLine's Break-In additive.

Half a bottle of this stuff in a 6 quart sump raises the ZDDP levels up nicely. I use this stuff in my boat, which has a pair of 454's in the 1986 vintage....

Here's info from RedLine's site:
Increases antiwear level per quart when using One Bottle (16oz.):

Capacity - Phosphorus - Zinc
15 quarts - 610 ppm - 736 ppm
12 quarts - 763 ppm - 920 ppm
10 quarts - 915 ppm - 1104 ppm
8 quarts - 1145 ppm - 1380 ppm
7 quarts - 1307 ppm - 1577 ppm
6 quarts - 1525 ppm - 1840 ppm
5 quarts - 1830 ppm - 2208 ppm
4 quarts - 2288 ppm - 2760 ppm
1 quart - 9160 ppm - 11040 ppm

Half Bottle (8oz.) when treating:

Capacity - Phosphorus - Zinc
12 quarts - 382 ppm - 460 ppm
10 quarts - 458 ppm - 552 ppm
8 quarts - 572 ppm - 690 ppm
6 quarts - 763 ppm - 920 ppm
5 quarts - 915 ppm - 1104 ppm
4 quarts - 1145 ppm - 1380 ppm

One Quarter Bottle (4oz) when treating:

Capacity - Phosphorus - Zinc
6 quarts - 382 ppm - 460 ppm
5 quarts - 458 ppm - 552 ppm
4 quarts - 572 ppm - 690 ppm
3 quarts - 763 ppm - 920 ppm


Bottle (16oz) contains:
33.8 grams total ZDDP (zinc dialkyldithiophosphate)
17,000 ppm, 7.8 grams Phosphorus (P)
20,500 ppm, 9.4 grams Zinc (Zn)
16.6 grams Sulphur (S)


So a half bottle in a six quart sump raises zinc about 900ppm over what was already in the oil.


Last edited by Phishin; 08/25/17 07:29 AM.

2018 Chevy Silverado 3500HD 6.0L Gas: RLI 10w30
2010 Accord-LX K24: MaxLife 5w30 + Torco MPZ
2014 CR-V LX K24: M1 0w30
Re: New HDEO = Low ZDDP..... possible solution? [Re: BigJohn] #4497594
08/25/17 07:46 AM
08/25/17 07:46 AM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,183
Midwest, Illinois
beanoil Offline
beanoil  Offline
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,183
Midwest, Illinois
Alarmguy's point is valid, just move away from dual rated HDEO. Rotella is single CK-4 rated, and has more "normal" Z&P levels.
And phishin's solution is exactly where I am with HDEO, if I was stuck with a CK-4/SN.
Go back to your Monarch oils. Still waiting for a UOA on those.


beanoil: Tough under heat, real dirty afterwards.
Re: New HDEO = Low ZDDP..... possible solution? [Re: beanoil] #4497596
08/25/17 07:51 AM
08/25/17 07:51 AM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,585
wv
krismoriah72 Offline
krismoriah72  Offline
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,585
wv
Rotella is what im running in my UTV. Cheap/easy to find/loaded with ZDDP


http://pqiadata.org/Shell_Rotella_T4_15W40_4192017.html

TBN- 10.27 Calcium 2295 Phosphorus 1080 Zinc 1203 Boron 207

Re: New HDEO = Low ZDDP..... possible solution? [Re: BigJohn] #4497607
08/25/17 08:08 AM
08/25/17 08:08 AM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 7,097
Michigan
A_Harman Offline
A_Harman  Offline
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 7,097
Michigan
Use an oil formulated for motorcycles. You could put in ZDDPlus or RL oil additive, but that's extra expense on top of the HDEO. I also wonder about the anti-foaming capability of an HDEO that has been formulated for 2100 rpm engines, and running it in 10,000 rpm motorcycle engines.


1985 Z51 Corvette track car
2002 Camaro Z28 LS1/6-speed
2001 Dodge Ram 2500 diesel
1972 GMC 1500 shortbed project truck
Re: New HDEO = Low ZDDP..... possible solution? [Re: BigJohn] #4497624
08/25/17 08:44 AM
08/25/17 08:44 AM
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 686
NJ, USA
MotoTribologist Offline
MotoTribologist  Offline
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 686
NJ, USA
Or you could just stop worrying about ZDDP levels. ZDDP is not the only anti-wear additive and modern oils are not worse than previous ones just because there is less ZDDP.

Re: New HDEO = Low ZDDP..... possible solution? [Re: BigJohn] #4497712
08/25/17 11:04 AM
08/25/17 11:04 AM
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 1,421
San Rafael, CA
dogememe Online content
dogememe  Online Content
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 1,421
San Rafael, CA
Royal Purple HPS - no additives required for proper Zinc levels. That's why I use it in my 92 Chevy, as TBI engines have flat tappet cams.

Last edited by dogememe; 08/25/17 11:05 AM.

2010 Ford Escape 2.5~91K Miles: AMSOIL SS 5W-30, AMSOIL SS FE ATF.
1995 Chevy Silverado 5.7 ~277K Miles: Delo 10W-30, AMSOIL OE MV ATF.
AMSOIL
Re: New HDEO = Low ZDDP..... possible solution? [Re: alarmguy] #4497804
08/25/17 01:07 PM
08/25/17 01:07 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 321
Schafflund, Germany
Extreme-Duty Offline
Extreme-Duty  Offline
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 321
Schafflund, Germany
Originally Posted By: alarmguy
Since you asked for a solution and you want a high zinc oil, simply choose a high zinc oil.

Gone on the days where every HEDO was high zinc.

To the best of my knowledge the new CK4 oils are high zinc.

The new dual rated CK4/SN oils are not high zinc in order to conform to the SN standard.
So just buy a CK4 only oil, not CK4/sn oil.

With that said, the new CK4 standard up to 50% less wear and need to remind everyone that there are elements other then what is tested for in oil.

This mornings thoughts only, since I use a high zinc HEDO 20/50 I havent paid much attention.
(I am trying a low zinc non HEDO as an experiment only, right now)


Yes, in HDEO specific high-soot tests. Nobody will be able to demonstrate how much "better" newer HDEOs perform at low soot levels compared to older formulations - regardless of how much Zn/P they use.


Been using EVER-SEEZ and Neverseal on all my stuff - I got it for free!
Re: New HDEO = Low ZDDP..... possible solution? [Re: alarmguy] #4498018
08/25/17 05:22 PM
08/25/17 05:22 PM
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 894
Colorado
BigJohn Offline OP
BigJohn  Offline OP
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 894
Colorado
Originally Posted By: alarmguy
..... since I use a high zinc HEDO 20/50 I havent paid much attention.......



Please share what 20w50 you are using.



........


'14 Ram 1500 EcoDiesel 4x4, Delo 5w40
'15 Mercedes ML250, PenEuro 5w30
'05 BMW R1200GS, M1 15w50
'02 Yamaha WR426, RT4 15w40
'05 KTM 950 ADV-S, RT4 15w40
Re: New HDEO = Low ZDDP..... possible solution? [Re: beanoil] #4498025
08/25/17 05:27 PM
08/25/17 05:27 PM
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 894
Colorado
BigJohn Offline OP
BigJohn  Offline OP
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 894
Colorado
Originally Posted By: beanoil
Alarmguy's point is valid, just move away from dual rated HDEO. Rotella is single CK-4 rated, and has more "normal" Z&P levels.
And phishin's solution is exactly where I am with HDEO, if I was stuck with a CK-4/SN.
Go back to your Monarch oils. Still waiting for a UOA on those.



Yep you are right....I thought I posted those UOA's.....sorry. I received them, just failed to post. If I remember correctly, the 10w40 sheared significantly, but the 15w50 held up like a beast. Give me a week or so to find those files......


Last edited by BigJohn; 08/25/17 05:34 PM.

'14 Ram 1500 EcoDiesel 4x4, Delo 5w40
'15 Mercedes ML250, PenEuro 5w30
'05 BMW R1200GS, M1 15w50
'02 Yamaha WR426, RT4 15w40
'05 KTM 950 ADV-S, RT4 15w40
Re: New HDEO = Low ZDDP..... possible solution? [Re: BigJohn] #4498230
08/25/17 09:40 PM
08/25/17 09:40 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,122
pa
benjy Offline
benjy  Offline
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,122
pa
looking forward to your reports big john, big bad john!! sorry i could not resist, a good old tune it is

Re: New HDEO = Low ZDDP..... possible solution? [Re: BigJohn] #4498331
08/26/17 04:02 AM
08/26/17 04:02 AM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,564
South Carolina
alarmguy Offline
alarmguy  Offline
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,564
South Carolina
Originally Posted By: BigJohn
Originally Posted By: alarmguy
..... since I use a high zinc HEDO 20/50 I havent paid much attention.......



Please share what 20w50 you are using.



........


I assumed you already knew, I posted this UOA a week ago, right in this forum under motorcyle UOA, all the others mentioned in this report are also posted, as well as a VOA 1 or 2 years back. I typed 20/50 by mistake in post above, its a 15/50. :o)

Click here, UOA, Mystik HEDO.

...

Last edited by alarmguy; 08/26/17 04:15 AM.

14 Road King (current)
08 VStar 1300 Tourer
07 Suzuki C50

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