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#4497529 - 08/25/17 07:47 AM New HDEO = Low ZDDP..... possible solution?
BigJohn Offline


Registered: 06/21/08
Posts: 884
Loc: Colorado
The source of the data I quote is from pqiadata.org.

I was stunned to see the reduced amount of ZDDP in some of the HDEO's that I have held in high esteem in the past. For instance.....

Delo 400
Zn - 817
P - 779

Delvac 1300
Zn - 884
P - 804

(Both have added Mg and B)


But Rotella and Valvoline and SuperTech, all keep their Zn and P between 1000 and 1199, for a much stouter ZDDP level.

I have read several threads with folks upset over this new generation HDEO and debating whether it is protecting as it should. But for the purpose of posting here, I really want to know everyone's opinions regarding motorcycle engines.

I would also like to know everyone's opinion of a product like ZDDPlus. If one were a die-hard Delvac fan, could a little ZDDPlus be added, bringing the levels back up to the 1200-1500's and rest assured?

I for one have after-market cans on my bikes, without a complicated exhaust system and am not worried about CAT failure, etc.

The newest bike I own is also a 2005 (I've got 7 bikes, 1997-2005) I use to be on the 'synthetic-only band wagon', but in the last couple of years have fed all my machines HDEO.

..................


Edited by BigJohn (08/25/17 07:49 AM)
_________________________
'14 Ram 1500 EcoDiesel 4x4, Rotella T6 5w40
'15 Mercedes ML250, PenEuro 5w30
'05 BMW R1200GS, M1 15w50
'02 Yamaha WR426, RT4 15w40

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#4497563 - 08/25/17 08:16 AM Re: New HDEO = Low ZDDP..... possible solution? [Re: BigJohn]
alarmguy Offline


Registered: 07/10/12
Posts: 2152
Loc: South Carolina
Since you asked for a solution and you want a high zinc oil, simply choose a high zinc oil.

Gone on the days where every HEDO was high zinc.

To the best of my knowledge the new CK4 oils are high zinc.

The new dual rated CK4/SN oils are not high zinc in order to conform to the SN standard.
So just buy a CK4 only oil, not CK4/sn oil.

With that said, the new CK4 standard up to 50% less wear and need to remind everyone that there are elements other then what is tested for in oil.

This mornings thoughts only, since I use a high zinc HEDO 20/50 I havent paid much attention.
(I am trying a low zinc non HEDO as an experiment only, right now)


Edited by alarmguy (08/25/17 08:20 AM)
_________________________
14 Road King (current)
08 VStar 1300 Tourer
07 Suzuki C50

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#4497573 - 08/25/17 08:25 AM Re: New HDEO = Low ZDDP..... possible solution? [Re: BigJohn]
Phishin Offline


Registered: 05/01/12
Posts: 2430
Loc: Indiana
If you want to add Zinc to oil, I always use RedLine's Break-In additive.

Half a bottle of this stuff in a 6 quart sump raises the ZDDP levels up nicely. I use this stuff in my boat, which has a pair of 454's in the 1986 vintage....

Here's info from RedLine's site:
Increases antiwear level per quart when using One Bottle (16oz.):

Capacity - Phosphorus - Zinc
15 quarts - 610 ppm - 736 ppm
12 quarts - 763 ppm - 920 ppm
10 quarts - 915 ppm - 1104 ppm
8 quarts - 1145 ppm - 1380 ppm
7 quarts - 1307 ppm - 1577 ppm
6 quarts - 1525 ppm - 1840 ppm
5 quarts - 1830 ppm - 2208 ppm
4 quarts - 2288 ppm - 2760 ppm
1 quart - 9160 ppm - 11040 ppm

Half Bottle (8oz.) when treating:

Capacity - Phosphorus - Zinc
12 quarts - 382 ppm - 460 ppm
10 quarts - 458 ppm - 552 ppm
8 quarts - 572 ppm - 690 ppm
6 quarts - 763 ppm - 920 ppm
5 quarts - 915 ppm - 1104 ppm
4 quarts - 1145 ppm - 1380 ppm

One Quarter Bottle (4oz) when treating:

Capacity - Phosphorus - Zinc
6 quarts - 382 ppm - 460 ppm
5 quarts - 458 ppm - 552 ppm
4 quarts - 572 ppm - 690 ppm
3 quarts - 763 ppm - 920 ppm


Bottle (16oz) contains:
33.8 grams total ZDDP (zinc dialkyldithiophosphate)
17,000 ppm, 7.8 grams Phosphorus (P)
20,500 ppm, 9.4 grams Zinc (Zn)
16.6 grams Sulphur (S)


So a half bottle in a six quart sump raises zinc about 900ppm over what was already in the oil.



Edited by Phishin (08/25/17 08:29 AM)
_________________________
2018 Chevy Silerado 3500HD 6.0L Gas: Undecided
2010 Accord-LX K24: VSP 0w20/MaxLife 10w30 + LG BioTech HD
2014 CR-V LX K24: M1 0w30

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#4497594 - 08/25/17 08:46 AM Re: New HDEO = Low ZDDP..... possible solution? [Re: BigJohn]
beanoil Online   content


Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 2955
Loc: Midwest, Illinois
Alarmguy's point is valid, just move away from dual rated HDEO. Rotella is single CK-4 rated, and has more "normal" Z&P levels.
And phishin's solution is exactly where I am with HDEO, if I was stuck with a CK-4/SN.
Go back to your Monarch oils. Still waiting for a UOA on those.
_________________________
beanoil: Tough under heat, real dirty afterwards.

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#4497596 - 08/25/17 08:51 AM Re: New HDEO = Low ZDDP..... possible solution? [Re: beanoil]
krismoriah72 Offline


Registered: 02/16/09
Posts: 1519
Loc: wv
Rotella is what im running in my UTV. Cheap/easy to find/loaded with ZDDP


http://pqiadata.org/Shell_Rotella_T4_15W40_4192017.html

TBN- 10.27 Calcium 2295 Phosphorus 1080 Zinc 1203 Boron 207

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#4497607 - 08/25/17 09:08 AM Re: New HDEO = Low ZDDP..... possible solution? [Re: BigJohn]
A_Harman Offline


Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 6921
Loc: Michigan
Use an oil formulated for motorcycles. You could put in ZDDPlus or RL oil additive, but that's extra expense on top of the HDEO. I also wonder about the anti-foaming capability of an HDEO that has been formulated for 2100 rpm engines, and running it in 10,000 rpm motorcycle engines.
_________________________
1985 Z51 Corvette track car
2002 Camaro Z28 LS1/6-speed
2001 Dodge Ram 2500 diesel
1972 GMC 1500 shortbed project truck

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#4497624 - 08/25/17 09:44 AM Re: New HDEO = Low ZDDP..... possible solution? [Re: BigJohn]
MotoTribologist Offline


Registered: 02/03/16
Posts: 562
Loc: NJ, USA
Or you could just stop worrying about ZDDP levels. ZDDP is not the only anti-wear additive and modern oils are not worse than previous ones just because there is less ZDDP.

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#4497712 - 08/25/17 12:04 PM Re: New HDEO = Low ZDDP..... possible solution? [Re: BigJohn]
dogememe Offline


Registered: 04/15/17
Posts: 612
Loc: SF BAY AREA, CA
Royal Purple HPS - no additives required for proper Zinc levels. That's why I use it in my 92 Chevy, as TBI engines have flat tappet cams.


Edited by dogememe (08/25/17 12:05 PM)
_________________________
2007 Ford Crown Vic P71 4.6 ~124K Miles, SynPower 5W-30, Royal Purple.
2010 Ford Escape 2.5 ~70K Miles, SynPower 5W-30, Wix.
1997 Chevy Suburban 5.7 ~214K Miles, O'Reilly FSHM, MicroGard.

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#4497804 - 08/25/17 02:07 PM Re: New HDEO = Low ZDDP..... possible solution? [Re: alarmguy]
Extreme-Duty Offline


Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 321
Loc: Schafflund, Germany
Originally Posted By: alarmguy
Since you asked for a solution and you want a high zinc oil, simply choose a high zinc oil.

Gone on the days where every HEDO was high zinc.

To the best of my knowledge the new CK4 oils are high zinc.

The new dual rated CK4/SN oils are not high zinc in order to conform to the SN standard.
So just buy a CK4 only oil, not CK4/sn oil.

With that said, the new CK4 standard up to 50% less wear and need to remind everyone that there are elements other then what is tested for in oil.

This mornings thoughts only, since I use a high zinc HEDO 20/50 I havent paid much attention.
(I am trying a low zinc non HEDO as an experiment only, right now)


Yes, in HDEO specific high-soot tests. Nobody will be able to demonstrate how much "better" newer HDEOs perform at low soot levels compared to older formulations - regardless of how much Zn/P they use.
_________________________
Been using EVER-SEEZ and Neverseal on all my stuff - I got it for free!

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#4498018 - 08/25/17 06:22 PM Re: New HDEO = Low ZDDP..... possible solution? [Re: alarmguy]
BigJohn Offline


Registered: 06/21/08
Posts: 884
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: alarmguy
..... since I use a high zinc HEDO 20/50 I havent paid much attention.......



Please share what 20w50 you are using.



........
_________________________
'14 Ram 1500 EcoDiesel 4x4, Rotella T6 5w40
'15 Mercedes ML250, PenEuro 5w30
'05 BMW R1200GS, M1 15w50
'02 Yamaha WR426, RT4 15w40

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#4498025 - 08/25/17 06:27 PM Re: New HDEO = Low ZDDP..... possible solution? [Re: beanoil]
BigJohn Offline


Registered: 06/21/08
Posts: 884
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: beanoil
Alarmguy's point is valid, just move away from dual rated HDEO. Rotella is single CK-4 rated, and has more "normal" Z&P levels.
And phishin's solution is exactly where I am with HDEO, if I was stuck with a CK-4/SN.
Go back to your Monarch oils. Still waiting for a UOA on those.



Yep you are right....I thought I posted those UOA's.....sorry. I received them, just failed to post. If I remember correctly, the 10w40 sheared significantly, but the 15w50 held up like a beast. Give me a week or so to find those files......



Edited by BigJohn (08/25/17 06:34 PM)
_________________________
'14 Ram 1500 EcoDiesel 4x4, Rotella T6 5w40
'15 Mercedes ML250, PenEuro 5w30
'05 BMW R1200GS, M1 15w50
'02 Yamaha WR426, RT4 15w40

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#4498230 - 08/25/17 10:40 PM Re: New HDEO = Low ZDDP..... possible solution? [Re: BigJohn]
benjy Offline


Registered: 08/23/10
Posts: 867
Loc: pa
looking forward to your reports big john, big bad john!! sorry i could not resist, a good old tune it is

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#4498331 - 08/26/17 05:02 AM Re: New HDEO = Low ZDDP..... possible solution? [Re: BigJohn]
alarmguy Offline


Registered: 07/10/12
Posts: 2152
Loc: South Carolina
Originally Posted By: BigJohn
Originally Posted By: alarmguy
..... since I use a high zinc HEDO 20/50 I havent paid much attention.......



Please share what 20w50 you are using.



........


I assumed you already knew, I posted this UOA a week ago, right in this forum under motorcyle UOA, all the others mentioned in this report are also posted, as well as a VOA 1 or 2 years back. I typed 20/50 by mistake in post above, its a 15/50. :o)

Click here, UOA, Mystik HEDO.

...


Edited by alarmguy (08/26/17 05:15 AM)
_________________________
14 Road King (current)
08 VStar 1300 Tourer
07 Suzuki C50

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