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MaxLife ATF and expansion when hot #4488514
08/14/17 04:24 PM
08/14/17 04:24 PM
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 2,377
The Northeast
mclasser Offline OP
mclasser  Offline OP
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 2,377
The Northeast
Some of you may remember I had a thread recently about using MaxLife in a DW-1 application (my Pilot). So I did a D&F last week and poured in 4 qts of MaxLife since 4 qts of DW-1 came out. I had a heck of a time getting a proper reading on the dipstick for the next few days. Followed all the steps in the manual: fully warmed up, run through the gears, level ground, check dipstick b/w 60-90 sec after shutting off engine. I finally got a reading that showed the level at the 2nd dot (H) mark. I said cool and moved on. Drove the car around town and the shifts were fine.

I went on a 200 mile trip this weekend and noticed the tranny shifting oddly about 50 miles in -- when everything was fully hot. At times, when going around curves or passing someone, the tranny felt like it was slipping. I knew something was wrong since the shifts were always butter smooth with DW-1.

Today, I pulled the dipstick after a 10 mile trip running errands and the level was now above the H mark. I used a food syringe and length of aquarium tubing from Walmart and took out 300 mL of ATF via the dipstick tube. Went for a drive and now the level reads a little below the H mark. Got to wait until another long drive to see if the slipping returns.

It's strange that the tranny was overfilled with MaxLife even though I added the exact amount that came out -- supposedly the most foolproof way to do a D&F. And yes, the level was good before I did the D&F.

Does ML expand differently than DW-1? I'm not an ATF expert but ML does have a different viscosity than DW-1; not-to-mention ML is a full syn ATF, unlike DW-1.


Last edited by mclasser; 08/14/17 04:32 PM.

2018 Hyundai Elantra VE -- 5K
2013 Honda Pilot EX-L 4WD -- 56K
2002 Honda Accord EX-L -- 211K

Re: MaxLife ATF and expansion when hot [Re: mclasser] #4488525
08/14/17 04:33 PM
08/14/17 04:33 PM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,139
USA
ArcticDriver Offline
ArcticDriver  Offline
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,139
USA
Excellent observation and hypothesis.


Multiple Diesel and Gasoline vehicles
Re: MaxLife ATF and expansion when hot [Re: mclasser] #4488568
08/14/17 05:33 PM
08/14/17 05:33 PM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 3,886
Connecticut
69GTX Offline
69GTX  Offline
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 3,886
Connecticut
My understanding was that both Max Life and DW1 were both in the 5.8-6.0 cSt viscosity range at 100 deg C (ie both are typical LV ATF's). Isn't DW1 at least a semi-synthetic?

We typically don't factor in 20 vs. 40 grade motor oil when adding 5-6 qts. Not sure why there should be any difference in volume expansion in similar grade ATF's.


----------------

2001 Lincoln Cont 4.6L DOHC/ 39K mi / QS HM 5w30 / FUG XG2
1999 Camaro SS M6 /19K /Mobil 1 0w40 /Fram UG /GM MTL-ATF
1969 Ply GTX/RRs
Re: MaxLife ATF and expansion when hot [Re: 69GTX] #4488574
08/14/17 05:38 PM
08/14/17 05:38 PM
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 2,377
The Northeast
mclasser Offline OP
mclasser  Offline OP
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 2,377
The Northeast
Originally Posted By: 69GTX
My understanding was that both Max Life and DW1 were both in the 5.8-6.0 cSt viscosity range at 100 deg C (ie both are typical LV ATF's). Isn't DW1 at least a semi-synthetic?

DW-1: 6.835 cSt @100C
MaxLife: 5.91 cSt @100C

Yes, DW-1 is a semi-syn here in the States.

Last edited by mclasser; 08/14/17 05:39 PM.

2018 Hyundai Elantra VE -- 5K
2013 Honda Pilot EX-L 4WD -- 56K
2002 Honda Accord EX-L -- 211K

Re: MaxLife ATF and expansion when hot [Re: mclasser] #4488601
08/14/17 06:20 PM
08/14/17 06:20 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 7,027
USA
slacktide_bitog Offline
slacktide_bitog  Offline
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 7,027
USA
Did you change the ATF when the trans was warm or cold?

Re: MaxLife ATF and expansion when hot [Re: slacktide_bitog] #4488611
08/14/17 06:26 PM
08/14/17 06:26 PM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 7,760
New York
pbm Offline
pbm  Offline
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 7,760
New York
Originally Posted By: slacktide_bitog
Did you change the ATF when the trans was warm or cold?


This is a pertinent question.

I changed the DexronVI on my (sold) Chevy Cruze by draining it COLD and replacing the exact amount that came out and I had no problems. I had read that if I drained it WARM or HOT it would be difficult to measure correctly because of fluid expansion so I drained it COLD...I would guess this might be your problem because Maxlife should work well in a Honda DW1 spec'd AT.


'Journalism is Dead'
Re: MaxLife ATF and expansion when hot [Re: mclasser] #4488641
08/14/17 06:58 PM
08/14/17 06:58 PM
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 282
Georgia
Charlie2015 Offline
Charlie2015  Offline
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 282
Georgia
4 quarts seems like too much for a honda v6 drain and fill - usually takes about 3.5 quarts.


1998 Honda Accord EX 2.3L Auto
2009 Scion TC Manual
Re: MaxLife ATF and expansion when hot [Re: Charlie2015] #4488663
08/14/17 07:26 PM
08/14/17 07:26 PM
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 2,377
The Northeast
mclasser Offline OP
mclasser  Offline OP
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 2,377
The Northeast
Originally Posted By: slacktide_bitog
Did you change the ATF when the trans was warm or cold?

It was warm.
Originally Posted By: Charlie2015
4 quarts seems like too much for a honda v6 drain and fill - usually takes about 3.5 quarts.

Service manual says 3.6 qts for a D&F. I had exactly 4 come out; probably since my driveway has a slight slope. Folks on the Pilot forum say it's not uncommon for 4 qts to come out.


2018 Hyundai Elantra VE -- 5K
2013 Honda Pilot EX-L 4WD -- 56K
2002 Honda Accord EX-L -- 211K

Re: MaxLife ATF and expansion when hot [Re: mclasser] #4488671
08/14/17 07:33 PM
08/14/17 07:33 PM
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 10,537
Indiana
dlundblad Offline
dlundblad  Offline
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 10,537
Indiana
Something isn't adding up.


03 Jeep WJ 4.0 200k Castrol Edge 10w40 HM Fram XG16
02 Volvo S60 2.4T 177k M1 0w40 Mahle OX149D
97 Chevy Blazer 4.3 149k Rotella T5 10w30 Supertech ST3980

Re: MaxLife ATF and expansion when hot [Re: mclasser] #4488730
08/14/17 08:32 PM
08/14/17 08:32 PM
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 156
PA
Chester11 Offline
Chester11  Offline
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 156
PA
Probably not all that helpful - but I had a similar problems reading the dipstick on my 09 CRV (also using Maxlife). I didn't measure what came out, but ended up putting back over 4 quarts total. (I also expected the 3.6 quarts, so I'm guessing the pan is about the same size).

My thought was that the Honda procedure leads to inconsistent readings, combined with the fact that the bend on the tube makes it difficult to read. I did mine in cooler weather and had difficulty getting any reading - my guess was it was probably underfilled on a previous service. I had to get the trans really hot (20 + minute drive at speed) to even reach the full line with a consistent reading.

If it's bothering you, maybe try a cold reading and compare to when hot. I know this isn't the procedure, but it gave me the warm fuzzy that I hadn't completely overfilled because the warm readings were so inconsistent. I would love to know why Honda has such an odd procedure - I mainly drove domestics before this, and they always mandated a read with engine on.

Re: MaxLife ATF and expansion when hot [Re: mclasser] #4488740
08/14/17 08:47 PM
08/14/17 08:47 PM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,320
Austin, TX
MaximaGuy Offline
MaximaGuy  Offline
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,320
Austin, TX
D&F exact amount on warm ATF - all bets are off. There is no way you can get the volume right.
Always D&F on a dead cold engine knowing that the ATF hasn't expanded in volume.


2018 MB GLE350
2011 Lexus ES350
2006 Toyota Highlander 4WD
Re: MaxLife ATF and expansion when hot [Re: mclasser] #4488759
08/14/17 09:05 PM
08/14/17 09:05 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 7,027
USA
slacktide_bitog Offline
slacktide_bitog  Offline
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 7,027
USA
Originally Posted By: mclasser
Originally Posted By: slacktide_bitog
Did you change the ATF when the trans was warm or cold?

It was warm.


There you go! You replaced 4 warm quarts of DW1 with 4 cold quarts of Maxlife.

Even if you used DW1 again, replacing a warm gallon with a cold gallon would've result in the same dipstick result you got with Maxlife smile

Re: MaxLife ATF and expansion when hot [Re: slacktide_bitog] #4488797
08/14/17 10:17 PM
08/14/17 10:17 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,322
VA
Gebo Offline
Gebo  Offline
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,322
VA
Originally Posted By: slacktide_bitog
Originally Posted By: mclasser
Originally Posted By: slacktide_bitog
Did you change the ATF when the trans was warm or cold?

It was warm.


There you go! You replaced 4 warm quarts of DW1 with 4 cold quarts of Maxlife.

Even if you used DW1 again, replacing a warm gallon with a cold gallon would've result in the same dipstick result you got with Maxlife smile


Agreed. I did exactly what you did. The fluid you remove needs to be the same temp as what you put back in.
Hot fluid has greater volume.


'98 LEX LS400 280K
'00 LEX GS300 195K
'02 4Runner 225K
'05 Lex LS430 85K
'06 Toyota Highlander 145K
'09 Lex IS350 85K
'07 Lex GX470 60K
Amsoil in all engines, transmissions and differentials

Re: MaxLife ATF and expansion when hot [Re: Gebo] #4488914
08/15/17 03:07 AM
08/15/17 03:07 AM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,139
USA
ArcticDriver Offline
ArcticDriver  Offline
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,139
USA
L
Originally Posted By: Gebo
Originally Posted By: slacktide_bitog


There you go! You replaced 4 warm quarts of DW1 with 4 cold quarts of Maxlife.

Even if you used DW1 again, replacing a warm gallon with a cold gallon would've result in the same dipstick result you got with Maxlife smile


Agreed. I did exactly what you did. The fluid you remove needs to be the same temp as what you put back in.
Hot fluid has greater volume.


It does not matter in the least what the temperature of any vehicle fluid is when it is drained and I would say getting it warm by running the engine first is benficial to get particlulates in suspension.

The only thing that matters is that the drained fluid is allowed to cool to the same temperature as the replacement fluid. They can both be kept in a refrigerator or left on a shop shelf of placed on the kitchen table next to the gravy as long as it is for a sufficient time to allow them to reach the same temperature prior to measuring volume.

grin


Multiple Diesel and Gasoline vehicles
Re: MaxLife ATF and expansion when hot [Re: ArcticDriver] #4488969
08/15/17 06:46 AM
08/15/17 06:46 AM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 30,627
NY
demarpaint Offline
demarpaint  Offline
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 30,627
NY
Originally Posted By: ArcticDriver
L
Originally Posted By: Gebo
Originally Posted By: slacktide_bitog


There you go! You replaced 4 warm quarts of DW1 with 4 cold quarts of Maxlife.

Even if you used DW1 again, replacing a warm gallon with a cold gallon would've result in the same dipstick result you got with Maxlife smile


Agreed. I did exactly what you did. The fluid you remove needs to be the same temp as what you put back in.
Hot fluid has greater volume.


It does not matter in the least what the temperature of any vehicle fluid is when it is drained and I would say getting it warm by running the engine first is benficial to get particlulates in suspension.

The only thing that matters is that the drained fluid is allowed to cool to the same temperature as the replacement fluid. They can both be kept in a refrigerator or left on a shop shelf of placed on the kitchen table next to the gravy as long as it is for a sufficient time to allow them to reach the same temperature prior to measuring volume.

grin


I agree. I would drain it warm after a drive, so some of the contaminants, wear metals, etc. are in suspension. Drain and collect the fluid, and allow it to cool to ambient temperature. I would have the fluid I plan to use sitting at ambient temperature as well. Once both fluids are at the same temperature measure the collected fluid and add that amount in fresh fluid back.


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