Recent Topics
Tranfer Case 2016 GMC Sierra 1500 6.2 8 speed
by dareo
23 minutes 58 seconds ago
Caliper slide pin questions
by ZZman
38 minutes 52 seconds ago
Perfect Afternoon with F7Fs
by Yah-Tah-Hey
Today at 06:10 PM
Blending E85 to use as cleaner in non-FFV
by ltslimjim
Today at 05:33 PM
01 Tahoe instrument cluster replacement question
by mjk
Today at 05:25 PM
Reasonable price to pay some one to detail?
by Colt45ws
Today at 05:09 PM
FCA upheaval--Marchionne ill, Jeep CEO takes over
by Carmudgeon
Today at 04:42 PM
Duck Boat
by Zee09
Today at 04:23 PM
What are these valves and can I use them to...
by E150GT
Today at 04:06 PM
OBD Tool
by dawgn86
Today at 03:31 PM
Any experience with the new FA-4 oils?
by SubaJew
Today at 03:24 PM
What's the average life (in miles) of mc tires
by JeepWJ19
Today at 03:00 PM
Car Recommendation: haul an electric scooter
by brueggma1
Today at 02:54 PM
300ZX Starter replacement
by aquariuscsm
Today at 02:50 PM
Finally Let the HF/Greyhound Franken Mower Go
by javacontour
Today at 02:17 PM
You know its hot when...
by Chris142
Today at 02:09 PM
2015 Mazda 3 - Exhaust CAM Actuator Seal - HM Oil?
by buster
Today at 01:16 PM
2009 Honda Civic starter reman brand quality
by bmwpowere36m3
Today at 12:07 PM
2005 Ford Escape engine replacement work V-6
by oilboy123
Today at 12:03 PM
Stuck license plate screws
by Dave Sherman
Today at 11:56 AM
Newest Members
ppreedom, krugger, jznwhite, S2K, tweak999
65524 Registered Users
Who's Online
82 registered (08z06, 2015_PSD, AndyB, 14 invisible), 1443 Guests and 30 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
65524 Members
67 Forums
287430 Topics
4795081 Posts

Max Online: 3590 @ 01/24/17 08:07 PM
Donate to BITOG
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
#4488514 - 08/14/17 04:24 PM MaxLife ATF and expansion when hot
mclasser Offline


Registered: 04/13/13
Posts: 2260
Loc: The Northeast
Some of you may remember I had a thread recently about using MaxLife in a DW-1 application (my Pilot). So I did a D&F last week and poured in 4 qts of MaxLife since 4 qts of DW-1 came out. I had a heck of a time getting a proper reading on the dipstick for the next few days. Followed all the steps in the manual: fully warmed up, run through the gears, level ground, check dipstick b/w 60-90 sec after shutting off engine. I finally got a reading that showed the level at the 2nd dot (H) mark. I said cool and moved on. Drove the car around town and the shifts were fine.

I went on a 200 mile trip this weekend and noticed the tranny shifting oddly about 50 miles in -- when everything was fully hot. At times, when going around curves or passing someone, the tranny felt like it was slipping. I knew something was wrong since the shifts were always butter smooth with DW-1.

Today, I pulled the dipstick after a 10 mile trip running errands and the level was now above the H mark. I used a food syringe and length of aquarium tubing from Walmart and took out 300 mL of ATF via the dipstick tube. Went for a drive and now the level reads a little below the H mark. Got to wait until another long drive to see if the slipping returns.

It's strange that the tranny was overfilled with MaxLife even though I added the exact amount that came out -- supposedly the most foolproof way to do a D&F. And yes, the level was good before I did the D&F.

Does ML expand differently than DW-1? I'm not an ATF expert but ML does have a different viscosity than DW-1; not-to-mention ML is a full syn ATF, unlike DW-1.



Edited by mclasser (08/14/17 04:32 PM)
_________________________
2018 Hyundai Elantra VE -- 3K
2013 Honda Pilot EX-L 4WD -- 55K
2002 Honda Accord EX-L -- 210K


Top
#4488525 - 08/14/17 04:33 PM Re: MaxLife ATF and expansion when hot [Re: mclasser]
ArcticDriver Offline


Registered: 01/27/17
Posts: 1139
Loc: USA
Excellent observation and hypothesis.
_________________________
Multiple Diesel and Gasoline vehicles

Top
#4488568 - 08/14/17 05:33 PM Re: MaxLife ATF and expansion when hot [Re: mclasser]
69GTX Offline


Registered: 09/23/15
Posts: 3815
Loc: Connecticut
My understanding was that both Max Life and DW1 were both in the 5.8-6.0 cSt viscosity range at 100 deg C (ie both are typical LV ATF's). Isn't DW1 at least a semi-synthetic?

We typically don't factor in 20 vs. 40 grade motor oil when adding 5-6 qts. Not sure why there should be any difference in volume expansion in similar grade ATF's.
_________________________
----------------

2001 Lincoln Cont 4.6L DOHC/ 39K mi / QS HM 5w30 / FUG XG2
1999 Camaro SS M6 /19K /Mobil 1 0w40 /Fram UG /GM MTL-ATF
1969 Ply GTX/RRs

Top
#4488574 - 08/14/17 05:38 PM Re: MaxLife ATF and expansion when hot [Re: 69GTX]
mclasser Offline


Registered: 04/13/13
Posts: 2260
Loc: The Northeast
Originally Posted By: 69GTX
My understanding was that both Max Life and DW1 were both in the 5.8-6.0 cSt viscosity range at 100 deg C (ie both are typical LV ATF's). Isn't DW1 at least a semi-synthetic?

DW-1: 6.835 cSt @100C
MaxLife: 5.91 cSt @100C

Yes, DW-1 is a semi-syn here in the States.


Edited by mclasser (08/14/17 05:39 PM)
_________________________
2018 Hyundai Elantra VE -- 3K
2013 Honda Pilot EX-L 4WD -- 55K
2002 Honda Accord EX-L -- 210K


Top
#4488601 - 08/14/17 06:20 PM Re: MaxLife ATF and expansion when hot [Re: mclasser]
slacktide_bitog Online   content


Registered: 03/20/08
Posts: 6387
Loc: USA
Did you change the ATF when the trans was warm or cold?

Top
#4488611 - 08/14/17 06:26 PM Re: MaxLife ATF and expansion when hot [Re: slacktide_bitog]
pbm Offline


Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 7646
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: slacktide_bitog
Did you change the ATF when the trans was warm or cold?


This is a pertinent question.

I changed the DexronVI on my (sold) Chevy Cruze by draining it COLD and replacing the exact amount that came out and I had no problems. I had read that if I drained it WARM or HOT it would be difficult to measure correctly because of fluid expansion so I drained it COLD...I would guess this might be your problem because Maxlife should work well in a Honda DW1 spec'd AT.
_________________________
'Journalism is Dead'

Top
#4488641 - 08/14/17 06:58 PM Re: MaxLife ATF and expansion when hot [Re: mclasser]
Charlie2015 Online   content


Registered: 04/24/15
Posts: 263
Loc: Georgia
4 quarts seems like too much for a honda v6 drain and fill - usually takes about 3.5 quarts.
_________________________
1998 Honda Accord EX 2.3L Auto
2009 Scion TC Manual

Top
#4488663 - 08/14/17 07:26 PM Re: MaxLife ATF and expansion when hot [Re: Charlie2015]
mclasser Offline


Registered: 04/13/13
Posts: 2260
Loc: The Northeast
Originally Posted By: slacktide_bitog
Did you change the ATF when the trans was warm or cold?

It was warm.
Originally Posted By: Charlie2015
4 quarts seems like too much for a honda v6 drain and fill - usually takes about 3.5 quarts.

Service manual says 3.6 qts for a D&F. I had exactly 4 come out; probably since my driveway has a slight slope. Folks on the Pilot forum say it's not uncommon for 4 qts to come out.
_________________________
2018 Hyundai Elantra VE -- 3K
2013 Honda Pilot EX-L 4WD -- 55K
2002 Honda Accord EX-L -- 210K


Top
#4488671 - 08/14/17 07:33 PM Re: MaxLife ATF and expansion when hot [Re: mclasser]
dlundblad Offline


Registered: 09/30/13
Posts: 10205
Loc: Indiana
Something isn't adding up.
_________________________
03 Jeep WJ 4.0 199k Castrol Edge 10w40 HM Fram XG16
02 Volvo S60 2.4T 177k M1 0w40 Mahle OX149D
97 Chevy Blazer 4.3 149k Rotella T5 10w30 Supertech ST3980


Top
#4488730 - 08/14/17 08:32 PM Re: MaxLife ATF and expansion when hot [Re: mclasser]
Chester11 Offline


Registered: 04/13/17
Posts: 130
Loc: PA
Probably not all that helpful - but I had a similar problems reading the dipstick on my 09 CRV (also using Maxlife). I didn't measure what came out, but ended up putting back over 4 quarts total. (I also expected the 3.6 quarts, so I'm guessing the pan is about the same size).

My thought was that the Honda procedure leads to inconsistent readings, combined with the fact that the bend on the tube makes it difficult to read. I did mine in cooler weather and had difficulty getting any reading - my guess was it was probably underfilled on a previous service. I had to get the trans really hot (20 + minute drive at speed) to even reach the full line with a consistent reading.

If it's bothering you, maybe try a cold reading and compare to when hot. I know this isn't the procedure, but it gave me the warm fuzzy that I hadn't completely overfilled because the warm readings were so inconsistent. I would love to know why Honda has such an odd procedure - I mainly drove domestics before this, and they always mandated a read with engine on.

Top
#4488740 - 08/14/17 08:47 PM Re: MaxLife ATF and expansion when hot [Re: mclasser]
MaximaGuy Offline


Registered: 09/20/03
Posts: 1237
Loc: Austin, TX
D&F exact amount on warm ATF - all bets are off. There is no way you can get the volume right.
Always D&F on a dead cold engine knowing that the ATF hasn't expanded in volume.
_________________________
2018 MB GLE350
2011 Lexus ES350
2006 Toyota Highlander 4WD

Top
#4488759 - 08/14/17 09:05 PM Re: MaxLife ATF and expansion when hot [Re: mclasser]
slacktide_bitog Online   content


Registered: 03/20/08
Posts: 6387
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: mclasser
Originally Posted By: slacktide_bitog
Did you change the ATF when the trans was warm or cold?

It was warm.


There you go! You replaced 4 warm quarts of DW1 with 4 cold quarts of Maxlife.

Even if you used DW1 again, replacing a warm gallon with a cold gallon would've result in the same dipstick result you got with Maxlife smile

Top
#4488797 - 08/14/17 10:17 PM Re: MaxLife ATF and expansion when hot [Re: slacktide_bitog]
Gebo Offline


Registered: 09/18/02
Posts: 2154
Loc: VA
Originally Posted By: slacktide_bitog
Originally Posted By: mclasser
Originally Posted By: slacktide_bitog
Did you change the ATF when the trans was warm or cold?

It was warm.


There you go! You replaced 4 warm quarts of DW1 with 4 cold quarts of Maxlife.

Even if you used DW1 again, replacing a warm gallon with a cold gallon would've result in the same dipstick result you got with Maxlife smile


Agreed. I did exactly what you did. The fluid you remove needs to be the same temp as what you put back in.
Hot fluid has greater volume.
_________________________
'98 LEX LS400 280K
'00 LEX GS300 195K
'02 4Runner 225K
'05 Lex LS430 85K
'06 Toyota Highlander 145K
'09 Lex IS350 85K


Top
#4488914 - 08/15/17 03:07 AM Re: MaxLife ATF and expansion when hot [Re: Gebo]
ArcticDriver Offline


Registered: 01/27/17
Posts: 1139
Loc: USA
L
Originally Posted By: Gebo
Originally Posted By: slacktide_bitog


There you go! You replaced 4 warm quarts of DW1 with 4 cold quarts of Maxlife.

Even if you used DW1 again, replacing a warm gallon with a cold gallon would've result in the same dipstick result you got with Maxlife smile


Agreed. I did exactly what you did. The fluid you remove needs to be the same temp as what you put back in.
Hot fluid has greater volume.


It does not matter in the least what the temperature of any vehicle fluid is when it is drained and I would say getting it warm by running the engine first is benficial to get particlulates in suspension.

The only thing that matters is that the drained fluid is allowed to cool to the same temperature as the replacement fluid. They can both be kept in a refrigerator or left on a shop shelf of placed on the kitchen table next to the gravy as long as it is for a sufficient time to allow them to reach the same temperature prior to measuring volume.

grin
_________________________
Multiple Diesel and Gasoline vehicles

Top
#4488969 - 08/15/17 06:46 AM Re: MaxLife ATF and expansion when hot [Re: ArcticDriver]
demarpaint Offline


Registered: 07/03/05
Posts: 30026
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: ArcticDriver
L
Originally Posted By: Gebo
Originally Posted By: slacktide_bitog


There you go! You replaced 4 warm quarts of DW1 with 4 cold quarts of Maxlife.

Even if you used DW1 again, replacing a warm gallon with a cold gallon would've result in the same dipstick result you got with Maxlife smile


Agreed. I did exactly what you did. The fluid you remove needs to be the same temp as what you put back in.
Hot fluid has greater volume.


It does not matter in the least what the temperature of any vehicle fluid is when it is drained and I would say getting it warm by running the engine first is benficial to get particlulates in suspension.

The only thing that matters is that the drained fluid is allowed to cool to the same temperature as the replacement fluid. They can both be kept in a refrigerator or left on a shop shelf of placed on the kitchen table next to the gravy as long as it is for a sufficient time to allow them to reach the same temperature prior to measuring volume.

grin


I agree. I would drain it warm after a drive, so some of the contaminants, wear metals, etc. are in suspension. Drain and collect the fluid, and allow it to cool to ambient temperature. I would have the fluid I plan to use sitting at ambient temperature as well. Once both fluids are at the same temperature measure the collected fluid and add that amount in fresh fluid back.
_________________________
God Bless Our Troops


Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >