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Conservative condemnation limits #4456054
07/11/17 09:05 AM
07/11/17 09:05 AM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,135
Austin, Texas
Brons2 Offline OP
Brons2  Offline OP
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,135
Austin, Texas
My 2012 Sonata, it has the 2.4 GDI engine, which has known issues with connecting rod bearings spinning and engines seizing. Both Sonata and Kia Optima models, as well as Santa Fe Sport and Sorento, are models affected. The problem also affects the 2.0 turbo engines of the same model vehicles.

Recall notices have been issued by the manufacturer and the government. What the ultimate recall action will be is still unknown, however, Hyundai has issued a warranty extension to 10 years/120K miles for the engine. I think Kia has gone one further and upped the coverage to 15 years unlimited miles for the particular defects people are seeing.

That said, people are waiting 2-3 months to get their engines replaced once they go. The long blocks are backordered and there is a waiting list. They will give you a loaner car while you're waiting however no guarantee of what it is - one guy on the Hyundai forum got an Accent, for example.

I would like to avoid this outcome until the manufacturer and government agree on the ultimate recall action on these engines. I don't want to be without my car for several months. So being a BITOGer I am switching from the recommended 5w20 (stamped on fill cap) to the allowed by owner's manual 5w30 and I will be doing analysis, just got my first sample yesterday evening and will be sending it to NAPA analysis. For the record, I put in 5 qts of M1 5w30, why, because my engine is DI and a magnesium heavy oil is supposed to be better for LSPI. Oh and it was sitting on my shelf already.

I plan to set some more conservative condemnation limits on it than I have with my past cars. These are the factors I am considering.

-Fuel dilution (Engine is DI): 3%? 5%? Ignore as long as wear numbers are good?
-TBN: change when TBN crosses TAN? or a certain number? 4.0? 3.0?
-Viscosity: Out of grade for 30wt? (<9.3) or <9.0? <8.5?
-Wear metals: Any bearing related wear metals above universal averages?
-Flash Point: <375? <350?

Any other factors you would consider for condemnation limits based on UOA?

Driving profile:
About 50 miles per day, long commute at mostly freeway speed, so this *should* be pretty easy on the oil. More mixed driving on the weekends.


2012 Hyundai Sonata GLS 6MT 2.4GDI, ProDS 10w30, XG9688 filter, 2018 Mitsubishi Outlander SEL 2.4 CVT, Factory fill still.
Re: Conservative condemnation limits [Re: Brons2] #4456061
07/11/17 09:12 AM
07/11/17 09:12 AM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,135
Austin, Texas
Brons2 Offline OP
Brons2  Offline OP
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,135
Austin, Texas
I should add that, I still want to get good value from my oil change intervals. The factory severe service limit is 3750 and non-severe service 7500. I'm not going to be changing at 3750, unless the analysis calls for it.


2012 Hyundai Sonata GLS 6MT 2.4GDI, ProDS 10w30, XG9688 filter, 2018 Mitsubishi Outlander SEL 2.4 CVT, Factory fill still.
Re: Conservative condemnation limits [Re: Brons2] #4456064
07/11/17 09:16 AM
07/11/17 09:16 AM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 12,557
Idaho
CT8 Offline
CT8  Offline
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 12,557
Idaho
What are we trying to do exactly?


2015 Ford F150 2.7
2018 Ford F350 6.2
Re: Conservative condemnation limits [Re: Brons2] #4456068
07/11/17 09:19 AM
07/11/17 09:19 AM
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 183
PA
MarcS Offline
MarcS  Offline
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 183
PA
If you're under warranty for a known engine problem, why are you going to use a non-spec oil? Run what they recommend until it blows up then let them fix it on their dime. I don't think there's any reason to believe that a heavier weight oil will help with a known engine defect.

Re: Conservative condemnation limits [Re: MarcS] #4456099
07/11/17 09:52 AM
07/11/17 09:52 AM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,135
Austin, Texas
Brons2 Offline OP
Brons2  Offline OP
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,135
Austin, Texas
Originally Posted By: MarcS
If you're under warranty for a known engine problem, why are you going to use a non-spec oil? Run what they recommend until it blows up then let them fix it on their dime. I don't think there's any reason to believe that a heavier weight oil will help with a known engine defect.


5w30 and 10w30 are specifically allowed in the owner's manual. 5w20 is recommended for best fuel economy.

Since I want best engine life and don't care about a minuscule decline in economy, I'm going with Xw30. In this case the M1 5w30 was just sitting in the stash.

The reason for the heavier oil is to avoid any fuel dilution situations on this DI motor. Don't need a 20wt shearing down to 5.xx cst on a motor known for bad connecting rod bearings.

Last edited by Brons2; 07/11/17 09:53 AM.

2012 Hyundai Sonata GLS 6MT 2.4GDI, ProDS 10w30, XG9688 filter, 2018 Mitsubishi Outlander SEL 2.4 CVT, Factory fill still.
Re: Conservative condemnation limits [Re: CT8] #4456100
07/11/17 09:55 AM
07/11/17 09:55 AM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,135
Austin, Texas
Brons2 Offline OP
Brons2  Offline OP
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,135
Austin, Texas
Originally Posted By: CT8
What are we trying to do exactly?


Set a more conservative than normal condemnation limit then normal, in the process of doing UOA to determine OCI.


2012 Hyundai Sonata GLS 6MT 2.4GDI, ProDS 10w30, XG9688 filter, 2018 Mitsubishi Outlander SEL 2.4 CVT, Factory fill still.
Re: Conservative condemnation limits [Re: Brons2] #4456132
07/11/17 10:23 AM
07/11/17 10:23 AM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,947
Ohio
L_Sludger Offline
L_Sludger  Offline
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,947
Ohio
I don't know what you mean by condemnation limits. Are you transliterating Spanish to English with that term?


too many cars and oil combinations to list in 150 characters or less
Re: Conservative condemnation limits [Re: Brons2] #4456141
07/11/17 10:30 AM
07/11/17 10:30 AM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,135
Austin, Texas
Brons2 Offline OP
Brons2  Offline OP
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,135
Austin, Texas
That means the limit at which one would decide to drain the oil and change it. i.e., the oil is condemned if XYZ parameter is out of range.


2012 Hyundai Sonata GLS 6MT 2.4GDI, ProDS 10w30, XG9688 filter, 2018 Mitsubishi Outlander SEL 2.4 CVT, Factory fill still.
Re: Conservative condemnation limits [Re: Brons2] #4456179
07/11/17 11:04 AM
07/11/17 11:04 AM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 6,073
Kalifornia Kollective
BrocLuno Offline
BrocLuno  Offline
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 6,073
Kalifornia Kollective
The slightly thicker oil will help cushion the bearings.

Do we know why the bearings are failing? Is it lugging loads that wipe the oil off and streak the bearings? Or, is it just bad machining?

M1 may be OK, now that it's not all PAO based ... The thing about synthetics is that they tend to exhibit lower surface tension (which helps them clean and gives the W rating a boost), but they can also exhibit drain-off. That is they loose some capillary fill over a few days.

Dino's are better at capillary fill. So they often wake-up quieter in the morning in most engines. So, after sitting for a few days, open the hood and listen to a cold start. If it rattles at all, I'd think about another oil. If it's quiet, you are good to go smile

I'd also use a Napa Gold filter. It's not quite as efficient as Fram Ultra, but it flows well with cold oil, and has a very good ADBV. Both are meaningful in getting oil to the bearings in a timely fashion.

I'd definitely let that motor idle for a few minutes before driving off. No hard acceleration until it has reached op temp. If it has sport mode for the tranny, I'd leave it there and not lay into the throttle above about 3,500.

The sport mode will delay the up-shifts (lower RPM loading) and the short throttle will reduce bearing velocity on the high side, so the rods will have the easiest time possible.

Should get you through if it can be done smile


Formerly in marine engineering. In an earlier life I owned my own petroleum tank truck, and hauled for the majors and independent's.
Re: Conservative condemnation limits [Re: Brons2] #4456275
07/11/17 12:10 PM
07/11/17 12:10 PM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,135
Austin, Texas
Brons2 Offline OP
Brons2  Offline OP
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,135
Austin, Texas
Hyundai has given a couple of excuses, they said they the machining debris was not cleaned up properly and restricted oil flow. They then said the process was changed after the 2012 models, but then later expanded the recall to the 2013s and 2014s. At one point an Hyundai engineer flew to Washington D.C. and briefed federal officials on other shortcomings of the Theta II engines and said Hyundai was aware of the issues but had been less than forthright in reporting them. The feds have opened an investigation into the whole business but no word yet on where that will go.

https://consumerist.com/2017/05/22/feds-open-investigation-into-recall-of-1-6m-hyundai-kia-vehicles/

Anyway,

I held the door open this morning while starting it up and no noise. So far so good. I bought 2 cases of the Miles Synblend 5w30, so, the oil will be changing at the next interval at any rate.

I'm using the OEM filter, it has very good flow but is not that efficient.

I do let it idle a little longer than other cars I have had before taking off maybe 20-30 seconds but right now it's in the upper 70s when I leave for work at 6:45am so I think the oil is going to flow pretty well right off the bat. When it gets colder I may let it idle a bit longer. I don't want to let it idle too much and increase fuel dilution as it's DI.

I will tell my foot to turn off the sport mode...it's a 6 speed manual wink
I keep the shifts between 2000-2500 when it's cold, at any rate.


2012 Hyundai Sonata GLS 6MT 2.4GDI, ProDS 10w30, XG9688 filter, 2018 Mitsubishi Outlander SEL 2.4 CVT, Factory fill still.
Re: Conservative condemnation limits [Re: BrocLuno] #4456394
07/11/17 02:17 PM
07/11/17 02:17 PM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 634
Anaheim, CA
zorobabel Offline
zorobabel  Offline
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 634
Anaheim, CA
Originally Posted By: BrocLuno

I'd also use a Napa Gold filter. It's not quite as efficient as Fram Ultra, but it flows well with cold oil, and has a very good ADBV. Both are meaningful in getting oil to the bearings in a timely fashion.

Anecdotal evidence... I only used a Wix filter once, and that's the only time I experienced startup clatter on cold starts. I took it out last week and will cut it soon.


1997 Maxima 190k, QSGB 5w30+QSUD 5w30 (2:1), PL14477
2004 Corolla 193k, VWB 5w20 + SSS 10w40, MGL4967
Re: Conservative condemnation limits [Re: Brons2] #4456569
07/11/17 06:07 PM
07/11/17 06:07 PM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 6,073
Kalifornia Kollective
BrocLuno Offline
BrocLuno  Offline
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 6,073
Kalifornia Kollective
Yeah, anecdotal to about 50 odd years of tinkering and trying every filter out there. Can't count the cars and trucks on both hands with cold start noises that cleared up as soon as I swapped in a WIX, Napa Gold, or Baldwin filter w/o changing oil. My friends would no believe it when I said it would work, so I ate the cost and did it for their enlightenment.

I've unscrewed a lot of AC Delco, Purolator, No-Name, and house brand filters from noisy engines at cold start and put on one of my favs. Works nearly every time smile

But, your results may be different. Nothing's perfect and I have gotten one or two bad WIX in the last 30 odd years ... It happens. Have never had a bad Baldwin/Hastings filter though smile

I'm sure the Hyundai filter is good. Efficiency is not needed here. Machining debris is big enough to be caught be the worst filter in the world, as long as the media does not have a hole in it laugh

Millions of air-cooled VW bugs ran for ever with just a simple screen and no filter at all laugh

Last edited by BrocLuno; 07/11/17 06:09 PM.

Formerly in marine engineering. In an earlier life I owned my own petroleum tank truck, and hauled for the majors and independent's.
Re: Conservative condemnation limits [Re: Brons2] #4456613
07/11/17 06:36 PM
07/11/17 06:36 PM
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 496
Australia
Ducman Offline
Ducman  Offline
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 496
Australia
With your usage patterns and proposed mileage I would think the only thing you need to worry about will be Viscosity.
The other parameters won't become an issue with your proposed OCI even with the thinner oil before the vehicle falls apart around you and it's time to get rid of it.

Unless the engine proves unreasonable noisy on the thinner oil I would go with that.
And I'm not a thin oil type of person, but I can see the advantages of it in an engine that's proven to do well with the stuff.
That is unless one is planning to do a fair bit of towing.

Re: Conservative condemnation limits [Re: Brons2] #4457007
07/12/17 07:29 AM
07/12/17 07:29 AM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 7,615
Indianapolis, IN
dnewton3 Offline
dnewton3  Offline
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 7,615
Indianapolis, IN
Generally I'm all for using condemnation limits based on wear metals. But this is a special case; it's a known failure waiting to happen, or else they would not be offering engine replacements.

I guess the underlying question is this ...
Will altering or reducing condemnation limits achieve his goal? (That effect of delaying the impending doom so that he's not without a ride or a loaner he does not want.)
And beneath that is the question of whether an OCI can even cause the effect he seeks? Or will the engine initiate it's self-destruct sequence regardless of the OCI plan?

Just as a total SWAG here, use the 5w-30 and cut the OEM OCI in half. I have no data to prove this would be useful or not; we're in uncharted territory here. I don't know that a syn is needed; cutting the OCI in half is super-conservative. Syns don't really help in terms of fuel dilution. Pick a decent 5w-30 dino and OFCI more often, until the engine replaced. That will help offset the more frequent OCIs in terms of costs.


The act of preventative maintenance, in and of itself, is FAR MORE important than brand/grade/base choices among lubes and filters.
- under maintaining something is akin to abuse/neglect; that can kill equipment by shortening the lifespan
- over maintaining something has never been proven to be anything but a waste of time and money
Re: Conservative condemnation limits [Re: dnewton3] #4457172
07/12/17 10:28 AM
07/12/17 10:28 AM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 26,177
Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Garak Offline
Garak  Offline
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 26,177
Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Just as a total SWAG here, use the 5w-30 and cut the OEM OCI in half.

Yep, the OEM severe service intervals are short, so if one is looking at following their advice and their warranty regime, that might be best. Go severe service and don't worry.


Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 - Shell ROTELLA T6 Multi-Vehicle 5w-30, NAPA Gold 7356
1984 F-150 4.9L - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515
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