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#4360263 - 03/22/17 12:25 PM F-1 Oil burning to increase power
I_4 Offline


Registered: 08/08/14
Posts: 47
Loc: Southeast MA
I am a bit surprised that no one has started a thread on this, so here goes. Renault has accused MB of burning oil during qualifying or other times to increase the "fuel flow" and power. To get around the fuel flow limiter rules currently in place. Engine Oil consumption is not limited or regulated. So it must be some type of covert to the rules system that will allow engine oil to the combustion chambers. Of course MB denies all of this now. Anytime there is smoke, there could be fire, and I do think Renault would just make this up. But who knows? Not really a big fan of these power units, the expense and noise. I preferred the V12 and flat 12 era. MB has had the upper hand the past three years with their split turbo. But they are technically interesting science projects.
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#4360329 - 03/22/17 01:54 PM Re: F-1 Oil burning to increase power [Re: I_4]
RedOakRanch Offline


Registered: 11/10/13
Posts: 846
Loc: Central Coast California
It is proven in 2 strokes that burning oil increases power when tuned correctly, maybe there is something to it. I'd think it would have to come from the intake and not past the rings to be beneficial. I'm not up on F1 design but I'm imagining a pressurized leaky valve train that leads to the intake...
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#4360354 - 03/22/17 02:46 PM Re: F-1 Oil burning to increase power [Re: I_4]
02SE Offline


Registered: 12/30/05
Posts: 2725
Loc: The Canyons
"If you ain't cheatin', you ain't tryin'"

JJ

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#4360365 - 03/22/17 02:58 PM Re: F-1 Oil burning to increase power [Re: I_4]
Danno Offline


Registered: 10/07/12
Posts: 1988
Loc: Northern Ontario, Canada
A "malfunctioning PCV valve" would certainly fit the bill to allow more oil into combustion chamber.
I wonder if the oil is formulated to be more combustible than a standard oil ....
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#4360377 - 03/22/17 03:11 PM Re: F-1 Oil burning to increase power [Re: I_4]
OPR4H Offline


Registered: 03/01/17
Posts: 148
Loc: Orbit
So, Pale mineral oil would burn at higher pressure engines? They may be adding those maxx add in the turbo exit?
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#4360386 - 03/22/17 03:22 PM Re: F-1 Oil burning to increase power [Re: I_4]
billt460 Offline


Registered: 03/30/15
Posts: 4386
Loc: Glendale, Arizona
There is more thermal energy in a gallon of Diesel oil, than in a gallon of gas. Diesel fuel is basically light oil, so it all makes sense.

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#4360394 - 03/22/17 03:31 PM Re: F-1 Oil burning to increase power [Re: I_4]
Shannow Online   content


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 39845
Loc: 'Stralia
Litre for litre there's more energy content in the oil than in the fuel.

Octane not so much.

Can see it happening, and I thought back in the days of fuel freezing, this was tried.

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#4360396 - 03/22/17 03:32 PM Re: F-1 Oil burning to increase power [Re: I_4]
bdcardinal Offline


Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 10979
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA
What's next water cooled brakes? O wait...
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#4360472 - 03/22/17 05:09 PM Re: F-1 Oil burning to increase power [Re: I_4]
Klutch9 Offline


Registered: 01/07/09
Posts: 2453
Loc: Rochester, MI, US, World
I've noticed that these turbo F1 engines sometimes smoke a little when pulling away from a stop, but I've always noticed that the Mercedes' are the 'smokiest' of the bunch. Clever idea nonetheless; no limit to oil sump size IIRC.
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#4360542 - 03/22/17 05:59 PM Re: F-1 Oil burning to increase power [Re: Klutch9]
E150GT Offline


Registered: 03/11/12
Posts: 1091
Loc: San Antonio, TX
you dont need to cheat when you have Nico Rosberg(had) and Lewis Hamilton.
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#4360548 - 03/22/17 06:05 PM Re: F-1 Oil burning to increase power [Re: I_4]
A_Harman Offline


Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 6915
Loc: Michigan
At the cylinder pressure levels they are running, I'm skeptical they could use enough motor oil in the combustion chamber to make significantly more power without it causing detonation problems. Motor oil typically has a cetane number of 80, which makes it very prone to autoignition. Maybe their lubricant supplier has developed a very special lubricant that overcomes this problem?
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#4360576 - 03/22/17 06:25 PM Re: F-1 Oil burning to increase power [Re: A_Harman]
SLO_Town Offline


Registered: 03/03/11
Posts: 665
Loc: California's Wine Country
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
At the cylinder pressure levels they are running, I'm skeptical they could use enough motor oil in the combustion chamber to make significantly more power without it causing detonation problems. Motor oil typically has a cetane number of 80, which makes it very prone to autoignition. Maybe their lubricant supplier has developed a very special lubricant that overcomes this problem?


In Formula 1 anything is possible. If these oil burn stories are true, I can easily imagine tens of millions of dollars being spent in a single season to develop, use, and perfect an engine oil that provided additional benefits beyond "ordinary" engine lubrication.

This kind of stuff is what makes F1 great. (and as someone said, bring back the 3 liter 12s - naturally aspirated and without fuel restrictions!)

Scott
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#4360601 - 03/22/17 06:46 PM Re: F-1 Oil burning to increase power [Re: SLO_Town]
A_Harman Offline


Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 6915
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: SLO_Town
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
At the cylinder pressure levels they are running, I'm skeptical they could use enough motor oil in the combustion chamber to make significantly more power without it causing detonation problems. Motor oil typically has a cetane number of 80, which makes it very prone to autoignition. Maybe their lubricant supplier has developed a very special lubricant that overcomes this problem?


In Formula 1 anything is possible. If these oil burn stories are true, I can easily imagine tens of millions of dollars being spent in a single season to develop, use, and perfect an engine oil that provided additional benefits beyond "ordinary" engine lubrication.

This kind of stuff is what makes F1 great. (and as someone said, bring back the 3 liter 12s - naturally aspirated and without fuel restrictions!)

Scott


Yes, that's why I didn't completely dismiss the possibility. Never say never when it comes to F1 and chemistry.
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#4360604 - 03/22/17 06:49 PM Re: F-1 Oil burning to increase power [Re: I_4]
SLO_Town Offline


Registered: 03/03/11
Posts: 665
Loc: California's Wine Country
Hello, I'm going to add further comment about Formula 1 competition...

Years ago (I'm 64) Sam Posey was covering Grand Prixs for one of the networks. This may even have been before cable. There had been rumors that the Grand Prix cars were using "rocket fuel" instead of the specified gasoline design. Rumors circulated about pit crew members being affected by these fumes. There were several fuel suppliers, the usual ones in F1, Agip, Shell, Gulf, etal. These suppliers had very close relationships with certain F1 Constructors. It was part of the technical alliance in F1.

On this particular broadcast (I'm thinking mid '80s), Sam somehow got a hold two professional looking measuring flasks. These two identical flasks held exactly equal amounts of fuel. I seem to recall the color of the two fuels differed somewhat, but the same exact quantity was in each flask. Sam had gotten one of the fuels from some official source. The other sample was obtained secretly from one of the teams. Right in front of the camera, right in front of your face, Sam puts the two flasks on a balance scale. One of the fuel samples caused the balance to slam down on its stop, because the other fuel was much lighter. You could visualize the difference in "power potential" between the two fuels, the heaviest one having the greatest power potential (and being the illegal one).

It was an amazing piece of investigative work by Sam Posey. There was indeed fuel cheating taking place! IIRC, the FIA started cracking down on fuel shortly after that.

Scott
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#4360619 - 03/22/17 07:04 PM Re: F-1 Oil burning to increase power [Re: I_4]
bdcardinal Offline


Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 10979
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA
In the turbo era of the 80s they were using Xylene, Nitro-methane, and Toluene according to a couple books I have read.
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