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F-1 Oil burning to increase power #4360263
03/22/17 12:25 PM
03/22/17 12:25 PM
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 51
Southeast MA
I_4 Offline OP
I_4  Offline OP
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 51
Southeast MA
I am a bit surprised that no one has started a thread on this, so here goes. Renault has accused MB of burning oil during qualifying or other times to increase the "fuel flow" and power. To get around the fuel flow limiter rules currently in place. Engine Oil consumption is not limited or regulated. So it must be some type of covert to the rules system that will allow engine oil to the combustion chambers. Of course MB denies all of this now. Anytime there is smoke, there could be fire, and I do think Renault would just make this up. But who knows? Not really a big fan of these power units, the expense and noise. I preferred the V12 and flat 12 era. MB has had the upper hand the past three years with their split turbo. But they are technically interesting science projects.


2007 BMW 328 Ams Euro 5W-40
2005 Honda Civic Si EP3 Ams Sig 5W-30
2000 Mazda B3000 (winter)
1992 Mazda Miata (summer/HPDE) Ams Z-Rod 10W-30
1990 Volvo 240DL
Re: F-1 Oil burning to increase power [Re: I_4] #4360329
03/22/17 01:54 PM
03/22/17 01:54 PM
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 864
Central Coast California
RedOakRanch Offline
RedOakRanch  Offline
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 864
Central Coast California
It is proven in 2 strokes that burning oil increases power when tuned correctly, maybe there is something to it. I'd think it would have to come from the intake and not past the rings to be beneficial. I'm not up on F1 design but I'm imagining a pressurized leaky valve train that leads to the intake...


1994 Ford Crown Vic 207k-Frankenbrew 0w20,30,40!
2005 Chevy 1500 Crewcab 4X4 180k-BC 0w30 $2/qt
2016 Outback 2.5 Limited 60k-shop brand?
Re: F-1 Oil burning to increase power [Re: I_4] #4360354
03/22/17 02:46 PM
03/22/17 02:46 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,882
The Canyons
02SE Offline
02SE  Offline
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,882
The Canyons
"If you ain't cheatin', you ain't tryin'"

JJ

Re: F-1 Oil burning to increase power [Re: I_4] #4360365
03/22/17 02:58 PM
03/22/17 02:58 PM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 2,109
Northern Ontario, Canada
Danno Offline
Danno  Offline
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 2,109
Northern Ontario, Canada
A "malfunctioning PCV valve" would certainly fit the bill to allow more oil into combustion chamber.
I wonder if the oil is formulated to be more combustible than a standard oil ....


2016 Sorento SX V6 AWD
2015 KIA RIO SX
2010 Mazda 3 2.0L
2009 Venza V6 AWD
2013 Sonata 2.4L RIP in write-off crash
Re: F-1 Oil burning to increase power [Re: I_4] #4360377
03/22/17 03:11 PM
03/22/17 03:11 PM
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 148
Orbit
OPR4H Offline
OPR4H  Offline
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 148
Orbit
So, Pale mineral oil would burn at higher pressure engines? They may be adding those maxx add in the turbo exit?


RPO-O
Re: F-1 Oil burning to increase power [Re: I_4] #4360386
03/22/17 03:22 PM
03/22/17 03:22 PM
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 5,142
Glendale, Arizona
billt460 Offline
billt460  Offline
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 5,142
Glendale, Arizona
There is more thermal energy in a gallon of Diesel oil, than in a gallon of gas. Diesel fuel is basically light oil, so it all makes sense.

Re: F-1 Oil burning to increase power [Re: I_4] #4360394
03/22/17 03:31 PM
03/22/17 03:31 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 40,884
'Stralia
Shannow Offline
Shannow  Offline
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 40,884
'Stralia
Litre for litre there's more energy content in the oil than in the fuel.

Octane not so much.

Can see it happening, and I thought back in the days of fuel freezing, this was tried.

Re: F-1 Oil burning to increase power [Re: I_4] #4360396
03/22/17 03:32 PM
03/22/17 03:32 PM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 11,323
Santa Barbara, CA
bdcardinal Offline
bdcardinal  Offline
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 11,323
Santa Barbara, CA
What's next water cooled brakes? O wait...


2014 Ford Mustang GT Track Pack
1995 Ford Mustang GT

Ford/Mazda Parts Counter
NRA Benefactor Member
Opinions expressed are my own.
Re: F-1 Oil burning to increase power [Re: I_4] #4360472
03/22/17 05:09 PM
03/22/17 05:09 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,460
Rochester, MI, US, World
Klutch9 Offline
Klutch9  Offline
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,460
Rochester, MI, US, World
I've noticed that these turbo F1 engines sometimes smoke a little when pulling away from a stop, but I've always noticed that the Mercedes' are the 'smokiest' of the bunch. Clever idea nonetheless; no limit to oil sump size IIRC.


'11 Fusion SE 2.5L - 79k miles - HK 0w20 syn, Wix XP filter
'08 Sedona LX LWB 3.8L - 126k miles - Havoline HM 5w20, Auto7 filter
Re: F-1 Oil burning to increase power [Re: Klutch9] #4360542
03/22/17 05:59 PM
03/22/17 05:59 PM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,277
San Antonio, TX
E150GT Offline
E150GT  Offline
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,277
San Antonio, TX
you dont need to cheat when you have Nico Rosberg(had) and Lewis Hamilton.


1984 Mercedes-Benz 300SD - 100k
1995 F150 XL 4.9 reg cab 5MT - 251k 5w30
2016 Mazda6 Touring 6MT - 57k 10w30
2006 Buick Lucerne CXL 3.8 31k 5w30
Re: F-1 Oil burning to increase power [Re: I_4] #4360548
03/22/17 06:05 PM
03/22/17 06:05 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 7,002
Michigan
A_Harman Offline
A_Harman  Offline
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 7,002
Michigan
At the cylinder pressure levels they are running, I'm skeptical they could use enough motor oil in the combustion chamber to make significantly more power without it causing detonation problems. Motor oil typically has a cetane number of 80, which makes it very prone to autoignition. Maybe their lubricant supplier has developed a very special lubricant that overcomes this problem?


1985 Z51 Corvette track car
2002 Camaro Z28 LS1/6-speed
2001 Dodge Ram 2500 diesel
1972 GMC 1500 shortbed project truck
Re: F-1 Oil burning to increase power [Re: A_Harman] #4360576
03/22/17 06:25 PM
03/22/17 06:25 PM
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 696
California's Wine Country
SLO_Town Offline
SLO_Town  Offline
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 696
California's Wine Country
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
At the cylinder pressure levels they are running, I'm skeptical they could use enough motor oil in the combustion chamber to make significantly more power without it causing detonation problems. Motor oil typically has a cetane number of 80, which makes it very prone to autoignition. Maybe their lubricant supplier has developed a very special lubricant that overcomes this problem?


In Formula 1 anything is possible. If these oil burn stories are true, I can easily imagine tens of millions of dollars being spent in a single season to develop, use, and perfect an engine oil that provided additional benefits beyond "ordinary" engine lubrication.

This kind of stuff is what makes F1 great. (and as someone said, bring back the 3 liter 12s - naturally aspirated and without fuel restrictions!)

Scott


03 BMW 330Ci (Euro Castrol 0W-30)
10 Honda Element (Kendall GT1 Max 5W-30)
11 BMW 328i (Euro Castrol 0W-30)
15 Ford Focus (Redline 5W-20)
Re: F-1 Oil burning to increase power [Re: SLO_Town] #4360601
03/22/17 06:46 PM
03/22/17 06:46 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 7,002
Michigan
A_Harman Offline
A_Harman  Offline
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 7,002
Michigan
Originally Posted By: SLO_Town
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
At the cylinder pressure levels they are running, I'm skeptical they could use enough motor oil in the combustion chamber to make significantly more power without it causing detonation problems. Motor oil typically has a cetane number of 80, which makes it very prone to autoignition. Maybe their lubricant supplier has developed a very special lubricant that overcomes this problem?


In Formula 1 anything is possible. If these oil burn stories are true, I can easily imagine tens of millions of dollars being spent in a single season to develop, use, and perfect an engine oil that provided additional benefits beyond "ordinary" engine lubrication.

This kind of stuff is what makes F1 great. (and as someone said, bring back the 3 liter 12s - naturally aspirated and without fuel restrictions!)

Scott


Yes, that's why I didn't completely dismiss the possibility. Never say never when it comes to F1 and chemistry.


1985 Z51 Corvette track car
2002 Camaro Z28 LS1/6-speed
2001 Dodge Ram 2500 diesel
1972 GMC 1500 shortbed project truck
Re: F-1 Oil burning to increase power [Re: I_4] #4360604
03/22/17 06:49 PM
03/22/17 06:49 PM
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 696
California's Wine Country
SLO_Town Offline
SLO_Town  Offline
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 696
California's Wine Country
Hello, I'm going to add further comment about Formula 1 competition...

Years ago (I'm 64) Sam Posey was covering Grand Prixs for one of the networks. This may even have been before cable. There had been rumors that the Grand Prix cars were using "rocket fuel" instead of the specified gasoline design. Rumors circulated about pit crew members being affected by these fumes. There were several fuel suppliers, the usual ones in F1, Agip, Shell, Gulf, etal. These suppliers had very close relationships with certain F1 Constructors. It was part of the technical alliance in F1.

On this particular broadcast (I'm thinking mid '80s), Sam somehow got a hold two professional looking measuring flasks. These two identical flasks held exactly equal amounts of fuel. I seem to recall the color of the two fuels differed somewhat, but the same exact quantity was in each flask. Sam had gotten one of the fuels from some official source. The other sample was obtained secretly from one of the teams. Right in front of the camera, right in front of your face, Sam puts the two flasks on a balance scale. One of the fuel samples caused the balance to slam down on its stop, because the other fuel was much lighter. You could visualize the difference in "power potential" between the two fuels, the heaviest one having the greatest power potential (and being the illegal one).

It was an amazing piece of investigative work by Sam Posey. There was indeed fuel cheating taking place! IIRC, the FIA started cracking down on fuel shortly after that.

Scott


03 BMW 330Ci (Euro Castrol 0W-30)
10 Honda Element (Kendall GT1 Max 5W-30)
11 BMW 328i (Euro Castrol 0W-30)
15 Ford Focus (Redline 5W-20)
Re: F-1 Oil burning to increase power [Re: I_4] #4360619
03/22/17 07:04 PM
03/22/17 07:04 PM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 11,323
Santa Barbara, CA
bdcardinal Offline
bdcardinal  Offline
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 11,323
Santa Barbara, CA
In the turbo era of the 80s they were using Xylene, Nitro-methane, and Toluene according to a couple books I have read.


2014 Ford Mustang GT Track Pack
1995 Ford Mustang GT

Ford/Mazda Parts Counter
NRA Benefactor Member
Opinions expressed are my own.
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