BMW LL01 alternate oils

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Turbos in N54 and turbo in N55 are running extremely hot. And while I appreciate BMW's concern for environment, I am not so sure whether engine and wallet would appreciate that. In the end, what is gain in fuel economy with LL01 FE?


Gain in horsepower, and fuel economy too, is 1.5% going to an HTHS=3.0 oil here, due to less engine friction.

Using a full syn dexos1 oil (used in turbo engines all the time) will work fine. Remember BMW N52, N54, and N55 sixes have great oil-to-coolant heat exchangers to keep oil temperatures in a tight range.
Again, to the OP's original stated goal, he could change at 5,000 miles and be in great shape with a BMW-recommended HTHS level.
Trust BMW, they have been making engines a couple of years now.




Do not forget that BMW puts in dealerships LL-01. Also, do not forget that LL-01FE serves for CAFE purposes.
I trust them, but I also know that BMW has first in mind their profit and when it comes to CAFE it matters what is going to be fleet MPG.
On top of that, with CBU issues on N54, and to lesser extent on N55, I am not sure would I run oil with NOACK of 13-15% in DI engine.
But hey, trust BMW, same like trust them with water pump in N55 or HPFP.

 

[oil_film_movies]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
Do not forget that BMW puts in dealerships LL-01. Also, do not forget that LL-01FE serves for CAFE purposes.
I trust them, but I also know that BMW has first in mind their profit and when it comes to CAFE it matters what is going to be fleet MPG.
On top of that, with CBU issues on N54, and to lesser extent on N55, I am not sure would I run oil with NOACK of 13-15% in DI engine.
But hey, trust BMW, same like trust them with water pump in N55 or HPFP.


Mercedes 229.5 NOACK limit is
As for CAFE, BMW does not get credit for LL-01 FE since they don't require its usage (LL-01 more typical in service). The EPA has always forced car makers to clearly state the low-friction oil on the oil cap and/or owner's manual, and LL-01 FE barely appears anywhere, virtually unknown until the BMW TwinPower 0w30 LL-01 FE (alongside the new BMW 0w20 "water") came along recently to dealerships.

About the water pump issue with BMWs, there are several weak spots/parts on BMWs which have irritated people for years. I could name 6 things (electric water pump is certainly one...). That doesn't mean BMW is willing to give up durability of main bearings, so I'd trust HTHS=3 in certain BMW engines per what their engineers know.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Do not forget that BMW puts in dealerships LL-01. Also, do not forget that LL-01FE serves for CAFE purposes.
I trust them, but I also know that BMW has first in mind their profit and when it comes to CAFE it matters what is going to be fleet MPG.
On top of that, with CBU issues on N54, and to lesser extent on N55, I am not sure would I run oil with NOACK of 13-15% in DI engine.
But hey, trust BMW, same like trust them with water pump in N55 or HPFP.


Mercedes 229.5 NOACK limit is
As for CAFE, BMW does not get credit for LL-01 FE since they don't require its usage (LL-01 more typical in service). The EPA has always forced car makers to clearly state the low-friction oil on the oil cap and/or owner's manual, and LL-01 FE barely appears anywhere, virtually unknown until the BMW TwinPower 0w30 LL-01 FE (alongside the new BMW 0w20 "water") came along recently to dealerships.

About the water pump issue with BMWs, there are several weak spots/parts on BMWs which have irritated people for years. I could name 6 things (electric water pump is certainly one...). That doesn't mean BMW is willing to give up durability of main bearings, so I'd trust HTHS=3 in certain BMW engines per what their engineers know.

We will just have to agree to disagree here.
Personally, regardless which BMW is in question, I would not use anything but LL-01 or LL-04 if diesel is in question., whether that is N54, N55 or B48 or B58.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
Unless your driving patter is 3 miles in one direction, leave car for 8hrs, 3 miles back, stick to LL-01.

I think driving patterns are often ignored. When different viscosities were more commonly listed, there was room for lower viscosities, particularly in such driving habits, with short drives, cold weather, and so forth.

 

[RooflessVW]

I'm struggling with why someone would want to run Dexos in an engine that requires LL01.

A better practice would be to run LL01 in an engine that requires Dexos.

 

[slo town]

Originally Posted By: rooflessVW
I'm struggling with why someone would want to run Dexos in an engine that requires LL01.

A better practice would be to run LL01 in an engine that requires Dexos.


This.

And while OP is at it, just run regular grade, low octane fuel. The N55 has knock sensors, right?

Scott

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: rooflessVW
I'm struggling with why someone would want to run Dexos in an engine that requires LL01.

A better practice would be to run LL01 in an engine that requires Dexos.


Exactly. That's a better recommendation.

 

[HolyOilSeeker]

I'll only be using Castrol 0w-30, maybe 0w-40 out of curiosity. Only LL01 in this car. Thanks for al the info. All the voa and uoa are great. (Thank you Scott). I was considering liqui moly but early burn off when it's been steady for 60k miles is not for me.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: HolyOilSeeker
I'll only be using Castrol 0w-30, maybe 0w-40 out of curiosity. Only LL01 in this car. Thanks for al the info. All the voa and uoa are great. (Thank you Scott). I was considering liqui moly but early burn off when it's been steady for 60k miles is not for me.

Stay away from Liqui Moly.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Unless your driving patter is 3 miles in one direction, leave car for 8hrs, 3 miles back, stick to LL-01.

I think driving patterns are often ignored. When different viscosities were more commonly listed, there was room for lower viscosities, particularly in such driving habits, with short drives, cold weather, and so forth.

Precisely. If oil cannot reach operating temperature it is a problem.
Short drives=thinner oil.
Long trips, pushing car hard= thicker oil.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
Short drives=thinner oil.

But there is another part of the equation: thicker oil = more heat being generated due to additional internal friction, which should actually help warm up the engine faster.

Not sure if it works that way, but I've seen it mentioned on BITOG numerous times before.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Short drives=thinner oil.

But there is another part of the equation: thicker oil = more heat being generated due to additional internal friction, which should actually help warm up the engine faster.

Not sure if it works that way, but I've seen it mentioned on BITOG numerous times before.

Actually I am doing test now. I will soon switch to Valvoline 5W40 MST so will see how it works in mountains since I can fallow very detailed oil temperature on Carly for BMW.

 

[FranzX3M]

Being that we have low sulfur fuel in Canada for some time now, what are the thoughts of using LL-04 in a N55? Manual says it fine. Does LL-04 offer the same levels or better performance for volatility and protection? I thinking more the potential advantage of less intake valve deposits on a DI engine.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: FranzX3M
Being that we have low sulfur fuel in Canada for some time now, what are the thoughts of using LL-04 in a N55? Manual says it fine. Does LL-04 offer the same levels or better performance for volatility and protection? I thinking more the potential advantage of less intake valve deposits on a DI engine.

I would still do UOA. If you going that route, maybe try first Mid-SAPS oil such as Valvoline 5W40 MST that meet combination of BMW LL-04 and Porsche A40.
Personally, my favorite in lower SAPS category is Mobil1 5W30 ESP due to very low NOACK (5.6%), very good HTHS (3.58) and low sulfated ash levels (0.6%). It should help with CBU, but I tried M1 in CC and Tiguan and TBN was shot in 3K. So maybe it will do 5k or more in N55 in Canada.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: FranzX3M
Being that we have low sulfur fuel in Canada for some time now, what are the thoughts of using LL-04 in a N55? Manual says it fine. Does LL-04 offer the same levels or better performance for volatility and protection? I thinking more the potential advantage of less intake valve deposits on a DI engine.

I'm not sure that we do. Read here. That's more than a little wishy-washy, and a far car from being guaranteed ULSG when going to the pumps. This seems to be somewhat in line with what's going on in the States. Make a big press conference and an announcement, and then set targets that have a 300% tolerance.

 

[FranzX3M]

Your right Garak. You could be getting low sulfur one day and high sulfur the next. Didn't know is was based on the annual average. I guess I'll stick to LL-01.

 

[Ohle_Manezzini]

Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
Guys, oilspecifications.org contains the N55 === LL-01 FE endorsement:
"BMW Longlife-01 FE (BMW LL-01 FE)
Fully synthetic long-life oil with fuel economy properties. Oils meeting this specifications must have a low HTHS viscosity to meet the manufacturer's fuel economy requirements. These oils are only suitable for the following engines: N1x, N2x, N54, N55, N63, N74."

That chart above is too old to even mention the N55, but it appears its fine to use an HTHS=3.0 oil in that engine. So a dexos1 0w-30 or 5w-30 can be used on a shortened oil change interval safely. BMW recommends HTHS=3.0 there.


Well, LL01 FE or Long Life and Fuel Economy are the same goals that other gas pcmo OEM reqs. oils have, like: Dexos1, VW 50x.xx, MB 229.xx, ... they're all in the same ball park, couldn't see short term problem by interchanging them when the approved in missing at the counter, IMO. VW 504.00 and 507.00 has the same spider graph, than Porsche C30, for example, wider tha LL01

 

[Ohle_Manezzini]

I meant Porsche A30 is the same spider graph than VW 504.00 and 507.00

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: Ohle_Manezzini
I meant Porsche A30 is the same spider graph than VW 504.00 and 507.00

It's the exact same spec, because they're part of the same parent company.

 

[Ohle_Manezzini]

So, no issues running vw oils in a Porsche. Why Porsche doesn't do the same as Audi and call vw 504.xx or 507.xx?