GM 5.3 L, 4L60E shifting worries

Status
Not open for further replies.
Originally Posted By: clinebarger
This can be fixed with the trans in the truck but will be labor intensive for a beginner, If your willing to do around 4 hours of labor with ATF dripping on you....I can tell you exactly how to fix it & prolong the life of the trans in the process.

Reaction Sun Shell Spline failures are caused by the "Bump" 1-2 shift!


So, is what you're talking about the install of a master solenoid kit or is it a different sort of fix that is needed?
 
DeepFriar,

Have you checked for any codes (including enhanced data/transmission codes that won't appear on many scan tools)? I'm surprised with 1-2 slide bump that a P1870 isn't showing...
 
Not yet. Not showing CEL but it still needs checking by someone with a transcode reader. I will be having someone check it tomorrow if I can get it in. Not an emergency but I don't want to let it lay.
 
Originally Posted By: DeepFriar

Aftr watching some 4L60E videos I had come to see the shell spline as a weak link, worst thing that might result from thee "clunk". It just looks weak the way it's welded to the shell. I would like to hear what a repair procedure would be. Not so I can do it, not able for a long list of reasons including not being an ace mechanic, but to recognize if it gets worse and also communicate better to a tech. If you would send me a PM or post that here I would appreciate it very much. Thanks. At least a common problem is one others have seen or are interested in knowing about.


Sure....

Loose 2/4 Band Clearance is a big contributor to this, GM/Hydramatic sets them loose from the factory for some unknown reason. With the Band loose the 2nd Servo Piston is allowed to pick-up to much speed & SLAM into the Band causing the "Bump" at the end of the shift.
Band Clearance can be corrected with a extra long Servo Apply Pin (Sonnax part# 77787-02K) It needs to be machined/ground to achieve .040"-.060" Clearance checked with a dial indicator at the Servo Cover.
You probably have .120"+ clearance now.

The "Soft Slide" at the beginning of the shift is caused by the 2nd Servo Piston being to small, Replace with a Corvette 2nd Servo.....HERE
Install AcDelco Cushion Spring part# 8681195.... HERE Install WITH the original Cushion Spring!! It DOES NOT replace it!!

Install a new Sonnax .470 Boost Valve, This is a STOCK ratio boost valve, Not a high performance part! This will restore the hydraulic integrity & prevent "Torque Signal Oil" from leaking around around the sleeve &/or the boost valve itself.... HERE.

Install Sonnax Servo Release Check Valve....HERE
This will help 3/4 Clutch life, Follow the directions for a Corvette Servo!!

Install a 2004 Corvette Separator Plate part# 24244053.....HERE
It has the correct orifice sizes for the Corvette 2nd Servo. If you use your OE plate....2nd gear will hit harder than you want, This plate has a smaller 2nd Clutch feed Orifice!

While the Valve Body & Plate are out, Check the 2nd Accumulator Housing for broken Springs &/or a worn/broken Piston. I order what I need from the dealer by VIN, There are 2 different Housings that require different spring sets & pistons, Installing the wrong spring/piston combinations will break the springs in short order!


Red arrow is the 2nd Accumulator Housing, The Yellow arrow in the Servo Cover....Just to give some points of reference.
 
Originally Posted By: DeepFriar
Originally Posted By: clinebarger
This can be fixed with the trans in the truck but will be labor intensive for a beginner, If your willing to do around 4 hours of labor with ATF dripping on you....I can tell you exactly how to fix it & prolong the life of the trans in the process.

Reaction Sun Shell Spline failures are caused by the "Bump" 1-2 shift!


So, is what you're talking about the install of a master solenoid kit or is it a different sort of fix that is needed?


With the exception of the '03 & up EPC Soliniod......The Solenoids in a 4L60E are quite reliable, If one does fail....You WILL know it right away, Electrical faults will result in "Limp/3rd gear only", Mechanical faults will result in missing gears, Wrong gear starts & the like.


Originally Posted By: Ramblejam
DeepFriar,

Have you checked for any codes (including enhanced data/transmission codes that won't appear on many scan tools)? I'm surprised with 1-2 slide bump that a P1870 isn't showing...


2nd gear can be missing altogether & still not throw a P1870 (Component slipping) code, On MOST 4L60E programming the P1870 code counter/trip is not active 'til the vehicle is in a steady state cruise situation in high gear. 99% of the time a P1870 is the TCC not locking up.

Same goes with Long Shift Errors, I don't think I have ever seen a shift error code with a 4L60E even with burnt down 3/4 clutches.
 
Originally Posted By: clinebarger
Originally Posted By: DeepFriar

Aftr watching some 4L60E videos I had come to see the shell spline as a weak link, worst thing that might result from thee "clunk". It just looks weak the way it's welded to the shell. I would like to hear what a repair procedure would be. Not so I can do it, not able for a long list of reasons including not being an ace mechanic, but to recognize if it gets worse and also communicate better to a tech. If you would send me a PM or post that here I would appreciate it very much. Thanks. At least a common problem is one others have seen or are interested in knowing about.


Sure....

Loose 2/4 Band Clearance is a big contributor to this, GM/Hydramatic sets them loose from the factory for some unknown reason. With the Band loose the 2nd Servo Piston is allowed to pick-up to much speed & SLAM into the Band causing the "Bump" at the end of the shift.
Band Clearance can be corrected with a extra long Servo Apply Pin (Sonnax part# 77787-02K) It needs to be machined/ground to achieve .040"-.060" Clearance checked with a dial indicator at the Servo Cover.
You probably have .120"+ clearance now.

The "Soft Slide" at the beginning of the shift is caused by the 2nd Servo Piston being to small, Replace with a Corvette 2nd Servo.....HERE
Install AcDelco Cushion Spring part# 8681195.... HERE Install WITH the original Cushion Spring!! It DOES NOT replace it!!

Install a new Sonnax .470 Boost Valve, This is a STOCK ratio boost valve, Not a high performance part! This will restore the hydraulic integrity & prevent "Torque Signal Oil" from leaking around around the sleeve &/or the boost valve itself.... HERE.

Install Sonnax Servo Release Check Valve....HERE
This will help 3/4 Clutch life, Follow the directions for a Corvette Servo!!

Install a 2004 Corvette Separator Plate part# 24244053.....HERE
It has the correct orifice sizes for the Corvette 2nd Servo. If you use your OE plate....2nd gear will hit harder than you want, This plate has a smaller 2nd Clutch feed Orifice!

While the Valve Body & Plate are out, Check the 2nd Accumulator Housing for broken Springs &/or a worn/broken Piston. I order what I need from the dealer by VIN, There are 2 different Housings that require different spring sets & pistons, Installing the wrong spring/piston combinations will break the springs in short order!


Red arrow is the 2nd Accumulator Housing, The Yellow arrow in the Servo Cover....Just to give some points of reference.






Wow, clinebarger, that is the most complete post I've ever seen! Many, many thanks for taking the time to do that. With this widespread of an issue I think your post should qualify as a sticky both for the list and for the spiders to find. I hope Wayne will agree. Final questions - how bad does it have to get before you dive in because I would think a shell spline failure would immediately be cause for total replacement? Does a preemptive approach make more sense for a non-mechanic? And finally, considering labor, fix it or go reman and be done with it? Where do I send your doughnuts? Thanks again.
 
Originally Posted By: DeepFriar

Wow, clinebarger, that is the most complete post I've ever seen! Many, many thanks for taking the time to do that. With this widespread of an issue I think your post should qualify as a sticky both for the list and for the spiders to find. I hope Wayne will agree. Final questions - how bad does it have to get before you dive in because I would think a shell spline failure would immediately be cause for total replacement? Does a preemptive approach make more sense for a non-mechanic? And finally, considering labor, fix it or go reman and be done with it? Where do I send your doughnuts? Thanks again.


It's hard to say how long the Sunshell Splines will take the abuse of a "bump" 1-2......With over 100,000, The Splines can strip without the added help.

Last week I rebuilt a '97 4L60E that stripped the splines & it had 197,000 miles, Some go at 80,000...Some go to 350,000. Other time's something else will go wrong, Like a Torrington Bearing failure.

I myself am not a big fan of remanufactured 4L60E's, You can easily end up with a dud that had been rehashed 100 times & nobody can get it right but it still get's recycled back into the system over & over again.
GM Service Replacement Transmission Assemblies (SRTA) & Jasper Remans are some of the worst.....I WILL NOT buy them as cores.

Your unit has lasted past 100,000.....DO NOT let it go! It's a GOOD unit, It's just a little long in the tooth & the hydraulic calibration flat sucks like it does in all platforms besides Corvette & F-Body.

I know there are some really shady grease monkeys out there that just throw frictions at a problem, But there are some of us professionals that take great pride in our craft. There is nothing a remanufacturing outfit can do that I can't do on a 4L60E. This why I specialize in a narrow range of transmissions.....4L60E, 700R4, 4L80E, 200-4R, TH350, TH400, 4T65E, 4T80E & Allison 1000. I don't mess with any other unit's anymore.
 
Well I sure wish I was in Ft. Worth. You sound like the kind of guy I would literally herd customers towards. I'm the best salesman for real craftsmen ever and the loudest, meanest whiner other times when I come across the dishonest and lazy just looking to take other people's money. One way or another I will make you famous!
cheers3.gif
 
Originally Posted By: Trav
If its a 99-05 I wouldn't worry about it till it fails, the sun shell will probably be the failure that knocks it out. At 130K its at those miles, its not a question of if just when.


+1 then get a good rebuilt with the heavy duty shell and better valve body. Find a rebuilder that does lots of them.
 
Originally Posted By: Doog
Originally Posted By: Trav
If its a 99-05 I wouldn't worry about it till it fails, the sun shell will probably be the failure that knocks it out. At 130K its at those miles, its not a question of if just when.


+1 then get a good rebuilt with the heavy duty shell and better valve body. Find a rebuilder that does lots of them.


Looking around there are many beefed up parts available for long term health when the time comes. Good advice from many BITOG friends much appreciated. Thank you folks.
 
Full rebuild with many improved parts and performed by, according to three mechanics I checked, the best shop locally is $1650. I've talked to them and trust them to do the work. While I think it's questionable to do this to a soon to be 13 year old SUV I am going forward with it.

Overall the vehicle is nearly perfect from very light use although I do have to fight the occasional electrical glitch and those may increase I am told. The deciding factor is not mechanical or financial. It means a lot to my wife as the vehicle was left to her. Happy wife, happy life.

So again, thank you to all of you for your input with full points going to Clinebarger's very detailed description. Anybody in or near Fort Worth should look him up if transmission help is needed.
 
Sonnax and heavy duty are things that I heard from the trans house but I didn't hear specific parts. Others mentioned Monster "Beast" by name but that struck me as a little hokie, meant to impress young builders but I could be wrong. Your mention of the Sonnax means it's the best?
 
Originally Posted By: DeepFriar
Full rebuild with many improved parts and performed by, according to three mechanics I checked, the best shop locally is $1650. I've talked to them and trust them to do the work. While I think it's questionable to do this to a soon to be 13 year old SUV I am going forward with it.



You are doing a complete rebuild because the shifting is just a little rougher? Something barely noticeable?
 
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: DeepFriar
Full rebuild with many improved parts and performed by, according to three mechanics I checked, the best shop locally is $1650. I've talked to them and trust them to do the work. While I think it's questionable to do this to a soon to be 13 year old SUV I am going forward with it.



You are doing a complete rebuild because the shifting is just a little rougher? Something barely noticeable?



Yeah, I take your point and it's a right question to ask. But, to me, it's either right or it's not and I'll obsessively worry over it every time it thumps it if I don't act on it. And now I've caused the wife to notice it which was less than bright of me. Heck, I even obsess over oil. I never said it was rational.
 
I dont mean to insult your intelligence, but mine has a tow mode by pushing the button in at the end of the gear selector that makes the tranny shift just as you describe.

Just trying to help.
 
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
I dont mean to insult your intelligence, but mine has a tow mode by pushing the button in at the end of the gear selector that makes the tranny shift just as you describe.

Just trying to help.



No problem, I appreciate your input. No tow mode but it does have a traction control button on the console, always off. Maybe tow was a 4x4 thing. This one is 2WD with traclock rear/airbags (I replaced with coils) and has never towed anything.

The problem is now worse than barely noticeable at times. Getting a real "snatch" occasionally now when it can't make up its mind. The people I've been talking to and have driven it say that it isn't going to get any better and that, although there is no way of being sure, at this mileage it is likely on its way out. The problem is that if the sunshell spline breaks then it's a possibly bigger, more expensive problem with the potential for trashing an otherwise lightly used trans.

Anyhow, that's all I know. Any further thoughts?
 
Last edited:
i know that 700r4 which is the basis of the 4l60e will go 300k if it lives past 100k without busting the shell.
the eventual failure was always 4th clutch failure.gives lots of warning and you can limp it a long time by selecting d rather than od.
this by personal experience through 4 of them.
i rebuilt them myself with the latest parts and ran them till the rest of the truck was done and then transplanted it to something else.
same with the 200r4.
they go till the stator support goes.
250k on one till it died.
that car went 450k till rust finished it.tranny went into a friends caddy despite 200k on it.
every 4th oil change i drain/refilled the pan.every 2 years a pan drop with filter.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: DeepFriar
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
I dont mean to insult your intelligence, but mine has a tow mode by pushing the button in at the end of the gear selector that makes the tranny shift just as you describe.

Just trying to help.



No problem, I appreciate your input. Any further thoughts?


Lucas trans fix
 
Originally Posted By: DeepFriar
Sonnax and heavy duty are things that I heard from the trans house but I didn't hear specific parts. Others mentioned Monster "Beast" by name but that struck me as a little hokie, meant to impress young builders but I could be wrong. Your mention of the Sonnax means it's the best?


The Sonnax is a BETTER piece & it rollerizes between the Lo/Reverse Sprag Race & Sun Shell, Induction hardened Splines & Drive Lugs with a welded on collar to support the hardened splines. Retail is $100

A GM 4l65E/4L70E Sun Shell is a fair choice in a stock rebuild, Will last 100,000. Cost $35.

The Beast sun shell is a very poor but thick stamping with equally poor machining made in Taiwan.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

jamyers63
Another 4L60E build with questions
2
Replies
21
Views
3K
clinebarger
P
4L60E - Lots of questions!
2
Replies
23
Views
9K
primetime
A
ATF & Shift Kits (A960E)
Replies
0
Views
489
AlmondChassis
S
My gen 1 3.5 Ecoboost; An inauspicious Start
2
Replies
28
Views
2K
benjy
redhat
2022 Silverado 1500 W/T (updated body), 5.3, 10-speed
2
Replies
39
Views
5K
Brons2
Back
Top