New oil change regime - half convinced in it ATM

[Shannow]

Just kicking some ideas around at the moment, and it would only work in a BITOGer's universe.

I'm contemplating the following. And aided by the fact that I'm becoming monogomous in my stash rather than a different oil every other change.

10,000km OCIs (already doing it)
20,000km filter changes (already doing it)
doing the filter change the weekend AFTER doing the oil change.

Reasoning being that DrDave has done particle counts, demonstrating pretty clearly that the effectiveness of the oil filter improves with time, a process called "blinding" in industrial filters (the flue gas fabric filters in power plants NEED a hundred hours at very low flow rates to cake up enough to filter the smoke particles)

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4053638/Re:_2013_Sportster_1200_5000_m#Post4053638

Coupled with former member Stinky Peterson (RIP) having done VOAs of heaps of out of the bottle oils that showed horrid particle counts...again, common industrially, we filter hydraulic oils on the way into the oil tanks, as it's too hard to clean them up if we just tip new oil in.

So keeping the filter on for two OCIs means that
* the filter is more effective
* the new oil being added is cleaned by the most effective filter that it's ever going to see, rather than being "dirty oil" on a not as effective filter.

Changing the filter a week after the OCI gets that initial kick of particles out.

Yes, have seen the complaints of leaving used oil in the engine.

But wait, there's more...

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...r_W#Post4049815

There are heaps of papers that demonstrate that used oil forms tribofilms faster than new oil. The used oil has more reactive and partially reacted species from the breakdown of the ZDDP and MoDTC which are more surface reactive than the virgin, as yet untouched additives.

There's genuine reason to change oil to get all sorts of things out of the engine, but is there good reason to remove ALL of it ?

Not so sure personally.

So combining the two, I'm half contemplating on my 7 litre sumped Nissan, pulling 5 of the 7 litres every 8,000km (10k OCIs), and doing the filter every 20,000km.

Only time new oil will see new filter is at 80,000km intervals, and change that filter a week or so after the OCI anyway.

 

[Colt45ws]

I would do it.

 

[chrisri]

Interesting. I can see only two possible problems here;
1. Some OEMs require following of specific oil change procedure to remove ALL of the old oil. Otherwise it was recorded new oil would get overly contaminated, and eventually turbos would fail (PSA)

2. My concern with leaving filter for double OCI is with that they are not design for that- in a way of paper media fail/collapse.

 

[Shannow]

chrisri, good commentary.

The new Castrol oil change box will likely leave a litre or so in the engine, and I'm not suggesting this for cars in Warranty.

Even if you are concerned about doubling filter usage period (20,000km doesn't worry me at all), I'd still change the filter after it had a chance to clean up the new oil...that's one part of the plan that I'm convinced of.

 

[Jetronic]

1) if the oil is totally spent by the time you change it, I would try to get as muc out as possible. There's no need to guess when the oil is totally spent, the caking and varnishing should be obvious on the dipstick.

2) I've seen one paper media filter collapse, and that was only after I touched it with my fingers, removing it after 8 years and 80.000miles of service. The filter was in one piece yet when I removed the housing.

I would not extend the filter change interval either, but I would disengage filter changes and oil changes from each other.


Change the oil at 10k but leave the filter in place. That way there's about 1 liter of oil left in the engine (about 0.5l in and above the filter, 0.5l between the cams and other engine parts).

Change the oil again at 20k, but the filter at 22k. You'll have one filter change interval of 22k, but after that you're back to 20k changes.



I think I'll go with 15k oil changes myself, but 35k oil filter changes (which is the maximum oci). Every 7th oci the oil and filter change would coincide.

 

[SR5]

You know I was thinking about something similar myself. Not quite the same as you, but yes I see the logic of changing the filter about 1 week late.

My plan was to do 1 year annual oil and filter changes (at about 12,000 KM / 7,500 mi ) but stagger as a separate oil or filter change every 6 months.

Nothing goes longer than a year, and the oil or filter that is left in is never spent (it's at 50%). Still a regular change, just staggered.

I'm assuming the car is out of warranty, and the oil used is the same in each change. I'm just using regular cellulose media filters, so only a year or 12,000 KM. However high quality synthetic filters would probably be pushed further, probably like Shannow above.

So doing a staggered oil or filter change every 6 months, the fresh oil will have a "conditioned" filter, and since my car requires no top up oil over a year, the fresh filter will let me add some fresh oil & additives to the old oil at 6 months.

 

[bobbydavro]

You can buy oil that is filtered already. The Castrol professional range is passed through a 22micron filter before filling.

Most engine oil filters are 25 micron

Dirty filters will caused oil pressure drop and make the pump work harder robbing efficiency

 

[pbm]

I have never ran oil filters more than one OCI but I'm thinking of using Fram Ultra's for 2 (approx. 6K or maybe 7K with synthetic) OCI's in my new Ford.

I figure I can use my oil extractor to siphon the oil through the dipstick which would preclude removing the belly pan half the time (which is a PITA).

The thought of changing the filter about a week later is intriguing and seems well reasoned.

 

[hatt]

Quote:
So keeping the filter on for two OCIs means that
* the filter is more effective
* the new oil being added is cleaned by the most effective filter that it's ever going to see, rather than being "dirty oil" on a not as effective filter.

Changing the filter a week after the OCI gets that initial kick of particles out.
The rocks in the new oil may help to make the new filter more efficient over it's entire life.

 

[goodtimes]

You're almost there, to use a submicron bypass filter. I used to do that with my dad 50 years ago. We never kept a car so long as to reap the rewards. Now I change oil and filter every 5k, using name brand synthetic oil, and will continue that regimen, having read all those same speculations you mention. I even use the factory OE filter, trusting their engineering that part, and my engine sounds the best it has since I bought the car nine years ago.

 

[camrydriver111]

Interesting idea.

1) So you're saying new oil introduces particles that need to be removed?

If that's true then keeping the filter on for longer does make sense.

2) The second part about the film formation. I think this would apply to virgin metal.

If you already have previously formed film, does it matter that the new oil can't form a film as quickly as used oil? I have doubts.

 

[Pontual]

Do you shake the container of new oil decantled in the stash. If not, it is pretty much filtered. If you shake for add mix, you end up lifting dirt up. But that's a good plan on the op. The problem with good oil, isn't that it comes much dirty, but that it detaches more stuff from its new detergents, so a better efficient filter would help, yes.

 

[Pontual]

I personally used to condition my new filters, by adding a few grams of good quality powdered graphite. It closes the gaps, and if it runs around, won't do any damage, on the contrary. One could use powdered moly for that too. Powdered version is more coarse than colloidal version that comes in additives, closing the media gaps quickly.

 

[jorton]

The warranty on the filter I'm using in my Jeep is "12 months/12,000 miles (parts only)". Would that mean only manufacturing defects are covered? Or are filtering efficiency and flow also guaranteed for 12,000 miles?

 

[BrocLuno]

State of California has been mandatory filter change on 2nd oil change for decades. They reached some of these same conclusions in the 1970's. But, they did not want to incur the added cost of offset filter change intervals, so they simplified it to every other one. Not the full benefit, but a good approximation...

If you are doing the work yourself, the cost is just time...

I change filters at random intervals on existing oil when I get more valve clatter at start-up. As the filter is slowly being "clogged" there is a point where cool oil will not pass through as easily, so it goes into bypass internally. But I use oversized filters on nearly everything so the media area is not at OEM spec.

The best way to do this is to use two pressure gauges, one on either side of the filter to actually know what the drop was and only change when it is at a predetermined point ...

My oversized filters can co 3 or four oil changes if need be

 

[Kuato]

Originally Posted By: pbm


The thought of changing the filter about a week later is intriguing and seems well reasoned.


"Well reasoned" was the exact terminology I was going to use! Intriguing concept which has some merit.


After reflection, some thoughts/comments:

- The voa is apparently from 2004 I'd be curious to see some updated results, to see if manufacturers have improved on their product.

- From the particle count, if I'm reading it right, the majority of the contamination is from 5 - 10 microns. Can we reliably say that the filter at its maximum efficiency will filter out particles smaller than 10microns? How about 15? If not, then changing filter at the same time as the oil will yield the same filtration results, assuming a new 20 micron filter @ 90%+.

- Running oil filters for 20000km (12000 miles) is easily within the ability of a high quality filter, especially FU or M1 or Amsoil that are designed to go 25000km (15000 miles)

- We've been reading for years that there is an initial depletion of additives with a fresh oil change; removing 5 out of 7 liters to in effect freshen the oil every 8k km seems to make a lot of sense.


Not trying to pooh pooh any ideas, just some thoughts....


edit: also came across this thread:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4096467/Change_filter_on_it's_own_inte

 

[AuthorEditor]

Even if it maximizes oil performance and engine longevity the gains are irrelevant for someone like me who lives in the Northeast where the frame or unibody will have rotted away long before an engine dies if you do nothing but abuse it. If you actually change the oil every 5k-10k miles with synthetic and a decent filter almost any engine is good for 200k-300k already, and by then the running gear or structure of the vehicle will be completely shot. Also, for me it is just as much hassle and time to change just the filter as it is to change both the oil and filter, so they get done at the same time: one time up the ramps, getting out the ground cloth, the tools, cleaning up, and putting it all away. So, it is an interesting intellectual exercise, but not very practical.

 

[Kuato]

Originally Posted By: AuthorEditor
Even if it maximizes oil performance and engine longevity the gains are irrelevant for someone like me who lives in the Northeast where the frame or unibody will have rotted away long before an engine dies if you do nothing but abuse it. If you actually change the oil every 5k-10k miles with synthetic and a decent filter almost any engine is good for 200k-300k already, and by then the running gear or structure of the vehicle will be completely shot. Also, for me it is just as much hassle and time to change just the filter as it is to change both the oil and filter, so they get done at the same time: one time up the ramps, getting out the ground cloth, the tools, cleaning up, and putting it all away. So, it is an interesting intellectual exercise, but not very practical.


It does make a big difference if your filter's easily accessible or hidden under several panels.

 

[Jetronic]

oil change is easy in my case, filter change not.

 

[BrocLuno]

I live where bodies easily outlast engines. One truck ago, it was Pop's old Ford F100 (1962) that we kept running in the family for well over 500,000 miles with three engine OH's (Ford 223 Six).

It had a HD 11" clutch and 4-speed so it used to push out the center main bearing and get too much crank-end play, so rebuild time at around 150,000. And the head was nothing special w/o hardened seats so it would recess valves ... Actually required valve adjustment annually (ah the good old days...).

The current truck in my back yard is not that much newer (1970 C-20) that I'll be selling this summer to finance something more comfortable (likely F-150 EB circa 1995 with bucket seats, console, etc.). It's on it's third engine (I bought it after they blew up #2 and built a BBC for it) ...

I'm looking at building a 1960's or early 1970's CJ5 and installing my last built 283 (aluminum heads, etc - almost as light as the 4-banger) and a whole lot quicker

So, yeah - engine life matters to me, a lot