Synthetic 5/10-30?

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: jrustles
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
and suspect in a blind test those do it be would be proven to be imaginary.


I would gladly partake in that trial.

At the end of the day these subjective observations are meaningless unless you're talking about something specific like a noisy lifter etc.

This thread is not about a difference in viscosity at operating temp's although most 10W-30s are heavier than their 5W-30 counterparts but not always.
So what would you rather use, M1 5W-30 (HTHSV 3.1cP) or M1 10W-30 (HTHSV 3.0cP)?

 

[gfh77665]

So far, two Canadians haven't much use for 10-30, and that's OK -- for them.

For me, here in South TX, 10-30 is a great choice! 10-30 won't consume like a 5-30 will, and yes, it IS quieter.

 

[geeman789]

Originally Posted By: gfh77665
So far, two Canadians haven't much use for 10-30, and that's OK -- for them.

For me, here in South TX, 10-30 is a great choice! 10-30 won't consume like a 5-30 will, and yes, it IS quieter.


I am CANADIAN, and...

I use 10w30 in the summer all the time... and I have on occasion used it in the winter as well... not a whole lot of difference, IMO., until it gets REALLY cold... like 0 f.

Yes, I find consumption seems lower as well...

As for engine noise, I can say that thicker has ALWAYS been quieter in MY! engines... one of these engines a high strung, high rpm, high mileage (350 k miles...) dohc 4 cyl. that had a chance to use every brand and every grade possible. And, gasp, even a 50 grade for a few summers...

And, no, it wasn't " IN MY HEAD...!"

 

[Merkava_4]

I'm running ST 10W-30 Full Synthetic. 10W-30 is superior to 5W-30.

 

[CarbonSteel]

Originally Posted By: gfh77665
For me, here in South TX, 10-30 is a great choice! 10-30 won't consume like a 5-30 will, and yes, it IS quieter.

I think this depends on the engine and other factors. I have 0W-20 in my FX4, it is just under 10K on this OC, and is still on the full mark with zero make-up oil added. I have 131K on the clock and live in the same climate that you do.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
That said, it no longer sells well in my area and syn 10W-30's are always on clearance for a dino price, so for summer use, especially for long road trips when cold start performance is not important, it can be a good deal.

The one Canadian Tire here, at least, has not restocked its 10w-30 synthetic offerings, after clearing them out very cheaply this winter.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: gfh77665
So far, two Canadians haven't much use for 10-30, and that's OK -- for them.

I did use 10w-30 regularly on the taxi fleet years ago. However, those years are gone.

Of course, I'll agree that there's really nothing wrong with a 10w-30 in the summer. I gave up seasonal oil viscosity changes in the late 1980s, though.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
I'm running ST 10W-30 Full Synthetic. 10W-30 is superior to 5W-30.

Merk, you and the "thick oil" proponents are full of it.

I'm using a thick oil, you are not.

 

[Merkava_4]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Merk, you and the "thick oil" proponents are full of it.

I'm using a thick oil, you are not.


Some guys on here still think 10W-30 is one cSt thinner than grease.

 

[Garak]

Well, it isn't significantly thicker than 5w-30, if that's what you mean. That's why I don't see a lot of point to 10w-30. If I wanted a thick 30 grade, I'd buy a thick 30 grade, be it GC or an HDEO, not 10w-30 in GF-5.

 

[jrustles]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
That said, it no longer sells well in my area and syn 10W-30's are always on clearance for a dino price, so for summer use, especially for long road trips when cold start performance is not important, it can be a good deal.

The one Canadian Tire here, at least, has not restocked its 10w-30 synthetic offerings, after clearing them out very cheaply this winter.


And that's probably a good thing in Saskatchewan!

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

So what would you rather use, M1 5W-30 (HTHSV 3.1cP) or M1 10W-30 (HTHSV 3.0cP)?


I haven't bought M1 in years, but if I had to (specifically M1) it would probably be the 5w30 indeed. They're a funny set of pepople IMO and have been constantly fiddling with the formula for whatever reasons- have always been reltively thin- remember the days of "thinning it out with a quart of M1"? But what did it was the inconsistent and downright dangerous formulas during "Katrina". I'm not going to put up with that mess on the highest priced oil in Canada. lol. SU

Now, the M1 5w30 seems fine; has stabilized in the past few, probably since HTO-06. No surprise given 5w30 is now the primary recommended grade for DI turbos and they can't afford to screw around with inconsistencies like the Castrol-litigation to Katrina era. It appears to me that the M1 5w30 is simply built with the better base blend.

Not all blenders are playing favourites with the standard range though. Mostly the HTHV is logical; always higher given a lower VI, which is somewhat telling about the relationship between the viscosity 'sisters' base slates. Certain specs like HTHSV, NOACK and even TFOUT are more clues to the base slate, and most commonly the 10w30 is the more stout synthetic.

 

[geeman789]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Well, it isn't significantly thicker than 5w-30, if that's what you mean. That's why I don't see a lot of point to 10w-30. If I wanted a thick 30 grade, I'd buy a thick 30 grade, be it GC or an HDEO, not 10w-30 in GF-5.

I on occasion get ROTELLA TTT 10w30 for DIRT CHEAP on clearance, because truck guys don't use no 10w30... only 15w40...!

It is a thick 30 grade, but thin compared to the 15w40 s usually used in trucks.

 

[Merkava_4]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Well, it isn't significantly thicker than 5w-30, if that's what you mean. That's why I don't see a lot of point to 10w-30. If I wanted a thick 30 grade, I'd buy a thick 30 grade, be it GC or an HDEO, not 10w-30 in GF-5.


The thing is though, you got guys on here that think 10W-30 is the same as Casite Motor Honey.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: jrustles
And that's probably a good thing in Saskatchewan!

It's a good thing all over. Castrol gold bottle 10w-30 is an answer to the question no one asked.

Originally Posted By: geeman789
It is a thick 30 grade, but thin compared to the 15w40 s usually used in trucks.

Yep, that's one of the examples I was thinking of. If one wants a thicker 30 grade, 10w-30 in SN/GF-5 is far from the top of my list.

Merk, I'm not sure they think 10w-30 SN/GF-5 is motor honey, but it's not going to be substantially thicker at operating temperatures than the 5w-30 SN/GF-5. If people want or need thicker, 10w-30 in SN/GF-5 really isn't it.

 

[MileHigh18]

Saw a few quarts of 10-30 PP for 4.60 a qt yesterday. My Traiblazer is specced for 5-30 but the manual says I can use 10-30 in certain climates. Guess I should've bought it.

 

[jrustles]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: jrustles
And that's probably a good thing in Saskatchewan!

It's a good thing all over. Castrol gold bottle 10w-30 is an answer to the question no one asked.


"Castrol is the answer no one asked for"
FTFY


No seriously, Saskatchewan and the Canadian prairies is unique, like, dangerously frigid. For the people that have no idea about grades and "run whatever" all year, eliminating anything but 0w20 is a great idea.

 

[Garak]

You don't need to eliminate everything except 0w-20. I doubt I'd consider a 0w-20 in my G unless it said "Red Line" on the bottle.

All I'm saying is that people ascribe way too much to the 10w-30 grade, particularly in the ILSAC varieties and in synthetic. It has no significant advantage over 5w-30 at operating temperatures and none of the cold start benefits.

If one wants a thicker oil, search for one with a higher HTHS, and you won't find it on the 10w-30 PCMO shelf, either.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: Garak
You don't need to eliminate everything except 0w-20. I doubt I'd consider a 0w-20 in my G unless it said "Red Line" on the bottle.

All I'm saying is that people ascribe way too much to the 10w-30 grade, particularly in the ILSAC varieties and in synthetic. It has no significant advantage over 5w-30 at operating temperatures and none of the cold start benefits.

If one wants a thicker oil, search for one with a higher HTHS, and you won't find it on the 10w-30 PCMO shelf, either.

Right, and since no auto company spec's it anymore, odds are only the cheapest base oils and even polymer additives will be used. As I said previously, for summer use if you can get a syn 10W-30 really cheap (well under 4 bucks per quart) then sure why not use it.
For myself, I don't even bother with 5W-XX oils anymore; it's 0W-XX for all 20, 30 and 40 grade oils.

Regarding using the 0W-20 grade in cars spec'd for 30 and heavier grades in bitterly cold Saskatchewan winters. You certain can because even normal oil temp's will be hard to achieve with most cars but I wouldn't generally recommend it unless you have at least an OP or OT gauge if not both.
But here's the thing, if you don't have oil gauges, M1 AFE 0W-30 has a lower MRV than most 0W-20's so it's something of a no-brainer to just use that.

 

[jrustles]

Originally Posted By: Garak
You don't need to eliminate everything except 0w-20. I doubt I'd consider a 0w-20 in my G unless it said "Red Line" on the bottle.


You mean to suggest that to eliminate all but your own personal favourite grades is unreasonable?

Because retailers making these decisions on behalf of their customers seemed to be something you'd favour.

Quote:

All I'm saying is that people ascribe way too much to the 10w-30 grade, particularly in the ILSAC varieties and in synthetic.


Well, what would those ascriptions be?

A tendency to higher HTHS, lower volatility, reduced polymeric VII content (and associated varnish/permanent shear opportunities) are hardly 'too much ascription', they're general characteristics; the yardstick, not the rulebook. There are too many examples of this in (even EC/RC) oil lineups to not be legitimately and modestly generalized as such.

Of course generalizing anything is bad practice, and enter our ability to make distinctions among the same-graded products.

Quote:

It has no significant advantage over 5w-30 at operating temperatures and none of the cold start benefits.


Including the word 'significant' instantly relegates the entire statement to personal interpretive subjection, unfortunately.


Quote:

If one wants a thicker oil, search for one with a higher HTHS, and you won't find it on the 10w-30 PCMO shelf, either.


Well I don't necessarily want a thicker oil, I want a more robust EC/RC oil most of the time so that I operate my engines in any way I please, not just in some "normal service" mode. I want to know that out of two choices, one will inherently degrade less easily, leave less mess behind and demonstrates a higher HTHS in operation. "Inherently" being the key word, not specified for. Obviously not all 10w30 (for example) qualify for those inherent qualities as the blender can cheap way out, but only a 10w30 graded oil out of the EC/RC trifecta, could.

I could not possibly care less about -30C pumpability right now to completely ignore any of the prior concerns that could lead to varnishing or permanent wear in an overheat/breakdown situation. It's summer and I plan to complete an OCI before winter.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: jrustles
You mean to suggest that to eliminate all but your own personal favourite grades is unreasonable?

Because retailers making these decisions on behalf of their customers seemed to be something you'd favour.

No, I'm talking about letting me decide for customers, not the retailers.

Quote:
All I'm saying is that people ascribe way too much to the 10w-30 grade, particularly in the ILSAC varieties and in synthetic.


Originally Posted By: jrustles
Well, what would those ascriptions be?


My biggest beef is the usual claim of 10w-30 being thicker at operating temperatures. While the HTHS of a 10w-30 SN/GF-5 is usually a bit higher than that of the 5w-30, the difference is minuscule. As I said, if someone wants thicker, buy something that's actually thicker, and not just at room temperature or cold cranking values.

Buying an ILSAC 10w-30 for the higher HTHS is pretty silly. Buy a 10w-30 HDEO or GC for the higher HTHS.

Now, how will a 10w-30 help with respect to wear versus a 5w-30? Varnishing? My half million kilometre LTD never saw a 10w-30 in personal use, and it was clean when the head needed a touch up. And how is a 10w-30 going to help in an overheat/breakdown situation? An HTHS of 0.1 or 0.2 higher isn't going to matter. You talk about the use of the word "significant." When has an engine ever worn to the point of being out of specifications on a modern 5w-30 where an ILSAC rated 10w-30 would have saved it? How is the difference of HTHS of 0.1 or 0.2 considered significant when the transposition of the numbers between the two grades would result in no change of the status of their respective grades or ILSAC approvals?

Now, if you were really worried about avoiding varnish and having sufficient HTHS (and never even have to worry about the oil in winter), you'd use something like Mobil Delvac Elite 222 0w-30, which is definitely thicker than any 10w-30 PCMO you'll find, with far better cold cranking specs than 10w-30 or 5w-30, and at a price I would guarantee is better than almost any other synthetic on the market in Canada and at a better price than most regularly priced conventionals, too. I suspect the same argument would apply to Petro-Canada's Duron 0w-30, although I'm not certain about its pricing, but I suspect it's competitive with Imperial Oil's offering.