Am I right? or am I wrong?

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
Edyvw I am curious to what kind of engine noise you hear while using M1 vs GC. Is it lifter tick? Timing chain noise?

Now where I live I realize is nowhere as cold as where you are but at 29F and my car sits outside by the way it's quiet at start up. So I'm not sure at what point or temp the engine gets noisy?



Same here (as concerns the curiousity of the M1 0W-40 start up noise/roughness).

Is it the relatively high MRV which causes this, despite it having a higher VI than most 40 weights out there??

M1 0W40 is GroupIII oil. GC is what is believed mostl PAO and probably has some Ester in it. That is why I believe it has smoother start. Ester moleculs stick longer on camshafts. Just my opinion.


GC mostly pao and ester.
You are misinformed. GC hasn't has pao or ester in it since the green stuff left the shelves so unless you've still got the green you've got a group 3 oil bud.
At least Mobil is visom which is an eclectic mix of everything.


Interesting how they sell same oil in Germany as Fully Synthetic not as HC oil.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
]2013 GTI Oil[/url]

CC does not come with that sticker, but it says in manual VW 502.00 5W40.
So by that premise, ONLY 5W40 502.00 oil goes in engine, while VW claims that VW504.00/507.00 replaces all other specs. If you put 504.00/507.00 in a car, VW cannot do anything about that when it comes to warranty issues.
Only reason why VW uses 502.00 is to be able to keep 10k OCI that they "pay" for. If they cut OCI to 5K using 504.00/507.00 it would be more expensive for them (considering they are using the cheapest Castrol in production).
I will do UOA on M1ESP at 4K or 5K, will see. So we will see how it holds. it is probably Group IV considering it is sold as fully synthetic in Germany, made in Finland, and has really good values (HTHS 3.58, flash point 254c, pour point -45).
I put oil in yesterday and cannot so far notice any difference compare to GC that was in before.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
I have been having what seems to be a debate over "Engine Oil OEM approvals" on a forum for the type of car I have. Folks on the forums are stating that Amsoil is OEM approved for 502 use. I argued that it isnt approved by the manufacturer rather it "meet or exceeds" the 502 specs set by the manufacturer. In no way was I saying that Amsoil or even Redline (also mentioned) are not good oils, I just was stating the fact that they both do not carry any OEM manufacturer approvals. My guess is due to the cost do obtain them.

Am I right? or Wrong?

Jeff

It's more important to understand what a spec means than the question of whether an oil is certified against a specific manufacturer's spec or meets the spec.

There are basically only two requirements of the VW 50x 0y oils, in addition to the usual API or ACEA requirements:

(1) Fully synthetic (13% max NOACK volatility but see the notes below)
(2) xW-40 or "xW-35" grade (HTHS viscosity greater than or equal to 3.5 cP required but also see the spec table linked below for the full list of viscosities)

What I mean by "xW-35" is an xW-30 that has HTHS viscosity greater than or equal to 3.5 cP, as opposed to the 3.0 - 3.1 cP of a typical xW-30. Such oils' viscosity is actually in between xW-30 and xW-40; hence, I call them "xW-35".

Note 1: VW 504 00 and VW 507 00 categories have NOACK volatility max of 11%. Therefore, they require super synthetics (PAO, GTL, etc.) such as Pennzoil Ultra, Amsoil, etc.

Note 2: API CJ-4 HDEO oils -- conventional or synthetic -- will also meet the VW 502 00 unless VW 505 00 or VW 505 01 are used in combination with VW 502 00, which will then usually exceed the maximum phosphorus (ZDDP) limit. This is because API CJ-4 HDEO oils, including the xW-30 grades, have an HTHS min limit of 3.5 cP and NOACK max limit of 13%. However, as mentioned, the ZDDP limit is 1200 ppm, which exceeds the limit in VW 501 01, VW 505 00, and VW 505 01.

See the Page 146 of the Afton Spec Handbook (PDF file) to understand the VW specs.

 

[bobbydavro]

You should read page147 and 148. That will show you the real difference with VW specs - the oils that carry them are proven in VWs engine tests.

No CJ4 oil will be capable of VW as it doesn't meet any of the PCO ACEA specs for a start.

There's far more to oil that just looking at Virgin oil analysis and making some conclusions based on additive ppm!

 

[bobbydavro]

Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
Edyvw I am curious to what kind of engine noise you hear while using M1 vs GC. Is it lifter tick? Timing chain noise?

Now where I live I realize is nowhere as cold as where you are but at 29F and my car sits outside by the way it's quiet at start up. So I'm not sure at what point or temp the engine gets noisy?



Same here (as concerns the curiousity of the M1 0W-40 start up noise/roughness).

Is it the relatively high MRV which causes this, despite it having a higher VI than most 40 weights out there??

M1 0W40 is GroupIII oil. GC is what is believed mostl PAO and probably has some Ester in it. That is why I believe it has smoother start. Ester moleculs stick longer on camshafts. Just my opinion.


GC mostly pao and ester.
You are misinformed. GC hasn't has pao or ester in it since the green stuff left the shelves so unless you've still got the green you've got a group 3 oil bud.
At least Mobil is visom which is an eclectic mix of everything.


You are misinformed. It's impossible to make a 0W-30 on that spec profile with all group 3

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

Originally Posted By: bigjl
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
Just for your info EDYVW when I spoke to Dave at Redline not too long ago they don't recommend the euro 5w30 in the 2.0T just the standard 5w30 they have. Their chemists have found no link between the low saps and the valve deposit issue common on our motors. The better NOACK of the 5w30 @ 6% may be of some benefit though. I'm still under warranty so no redline for me.

Jeff


Vauxhall/Opel recommend a low Saps C3 oil for the 2.2 direct injected petrol engine.

Don't know why but thought it relevant to mention it here.


I guess it depends on gas quality and sulfur content. VW feels for the USA market 502 which is hhigh saps suits the need. Then again that is meant for 10k oil changes. I can use 504/507 low saps oil but would need to change the oil every 3k miles.

I Just have not seen any proof myself that low saps would help. If you know of some real world test comparos please show me the links.

Jeff

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

Originally Posted By: bigjl
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
I never realized the price of oil variance throughout the world.

Here I am complaining that M1 went up. I was able to get it 6 months ago for $22.97 for 5 qts now its $24.97. I won't complain any longer.

Jeff

I saw M1 in Europe for $15 a bottle!


Was that for 1litre?

The cheapest M1 0w40 is Costco and it is £30 for 5litres. Or roughly $45.

If I ever see M1 for £10 or $15 for 5 litres i will be folding down the rear seats in the Pathfinder and borrowing the wifes credit card.


It's $23.97 for 5 quarts

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
I have been having what seems to be a debate over "Engine Oil OEM approvals" on a forum for the type of car I have. Folks on the forums are stating that Amsoil is OEM approved for 502 use. I argued that it isnt approved by the manufacturer rather it "meet or exceeds" the 502 specs set by the manufacturer. In no way was I saying that Amsoil or even Redline (also mentioned) are not good oils, I just was stating the fact that they both do not carry any OEM manufacturer approvals. My guess is due to the cost do obtain them.

Am I right? or Wrong?

Jeff

It's more important to understand what a spec means than the question of whether an oil is certified against a specific manufacturer's spec or meets the spec.

There are basically only two requirements of the VW 50x 0y oils, in addition to the usual API or ACEA requirements:

(1) Fully synthetic (13% max NOACK volatility but see the notes below)
(2) xW-40 or "xW-35" grade (HTHS viscosity greater than or equal to 3.5 cP required but also see the spec table linked below for the full list of viscosities)

What I mean by "xW-35" is an xW-30 that has HTHS viscosity greater than or equal to 3.5 cP, as opposed to the 3.0 - 3.1 cP of a typical xW-30. Such oils' viscosity is actually in between xW-30 and xW-40; hence, I call them "xW-35".

Note 1: VW 504 00 and VW 507 00 categories have NOACK volatility max of 11%. Therefore, they require super synthetics (PAO, GTL, etc.) such as Pennzoil Ultra, Amsoil, etc.

Note 2: API CJ-4 HDEO oils -- conventional or synthetic -- will also meet the VW 502 00 unless VW 505 00 or VW 505 01 are used in combination with VW 502 00, which will then usually exceed the maximum phosphorus (ZDDP) limit. This is because API CJ-4 HDEO oils, including the xW-30 grades, have an HTHS min limit of 3.5 cP and NOACK max limit of 13%. However, as mentioned, the ZDDP limit is 1200 ppm, which exceeds the limit in VW 501 01, VW 505 00, and VW 505 01.

See the Page 146 of the Afton Spec Handbook (PDF file) to understand the VW specs.


Good info Thank You

Jeff

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
]2013 GTI Oil[/url]

CC does not come with that sticker, but it says in manual VW 502.00 5W40.
So by that premise, ONLY 5W40 502.00 oil goes in engine, while VW claims that VW504.00/507.00 replaces all other specs. If you put 504.00/507.00 in a car, VW cannot do anything about that when it comes to warranty issues.
Only reason why VW uses 502.00 is to be able to keep 10k OCI that they "pay" for. If they cut OCI to 5K using 504.00/507.00 it would be more expensive for them (considering they are using the cheapest Castrol in production).
I will do UOA on M1ESP at 4K or 5K, will see. So we will see how it holds. it is probably Group IV considering it is sold as fully synthetic in Germany, made in Finland, and has really good values (HTHS 3.58, flash point 254c, pour point -45).
I put oil in yesterday and cannot so far notice any difference compare to GC that was in before.


I actually was considering this same oil you are trying. I may try it next oil change and do a 3k uoa on it. It is an approved oil and I can buy it anywhere.

Jeff

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
]2013 GTI Oil[/url]

CC does not come with that sticker, but it says in manual VW 502.00 5W40.
So by that premise, ONLY 5W40 502.00 oil goes in engine, while VW claims that VW504.00/507.00 replaces all other specs. If you put 504.00/507.00 in a car, VW cannot do anything about that when it comes to warranty issues.
Only reason why VW uses 502.00 is to be able to keep 10k OCI that they "pay" for. If they cut OCI to 5K using 504.00/507.00 it would be more expensive for them (considering they are using the cheapest Castrol in production).
I will do UOA on M1ESP at 4K or 5K, will see. So we will see how it holds. it is probably Group IV considering it is sold as fully synthetic in Germany, made in Finland, and has really good values (HTHS 3.58, flash point 254c, pour point -45).
I put oil in yesterday and cannot so far notice any difference compare to GC that was in before.


I actually was considering this same oil you are trying. I may try it next oil change and do a 3k uoa on it. It is an approved oil and I can buy it anywhere.

Jeff


I will do UOA at 3-4K and see how TBN holds. You in CA should not have problems running this oil 5K.
Also, there was a thread where someone said that M15W30 ESP left least amount of deposits on valves of his Audi 3.2FSi.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
You should read page147 and 148. That will show you the real difference with VW specs - the oils that carry them are proven in VWs engine tests.

No CJ4 oil will be capable of VW as it doesn't meet any of the PCO ACEA specs for a start.

There's far more to oil that just looking at Virgin oil analysis and making some conclusions based on additive ppm!

Of course, I had read the entire specs. I am the one who was familiar with this somewhat hidden reference and posted it here. You didn't understand what I posted at all and missed the entire point I was trying to make, which is actually understanding what these specs mean. It has nothing to do with ppms or VOAs.

VW 50x specs (except 504 00 and 507 00) will be met by any synthetic oil with the proper HTHS viscosity. There is nothing else more stringent about them than API or ACEA other the NOACK volatility. It's the same story as GM dexos1, the main difference being the 13% dexos1 NOACK vs. 15% API NOACK. VW 504 00 and VW 507 00 require PAO/GTL synthetics (Pennzoil Ultra, Amsoil, etc.) because of even lower NOACK (11%). The story is similar for some Mercedes - Benz specs, with even lower NOACK (10% for MB 229.5 and MB 229.51).

There is nothing magic about any OEM oil spec. Given that you have the right viscosity, the only additional spec they effectively have is usually just the NOACK volatility, which determines the quality of the base stocks (Group III, PAO/GTL, etc.). That's mainly for oil life and turbo performance. Cold-cranking and NOACK compete against each other and that's why these considerations are for a given viscosity. Study this reference (PDF link) to understand what I mean.

CJ-4 HDEO should meet the VW 502 00 spec. It has the same NOACK limit -- so similar base-stock performance. Not certified doesn't mean it doesn't meet -- it only means it wasn't tested and licensed.

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

So in a nut shell 504 surpasses 502 in terms that 504 would be suitable for newer technologies like Direct Injection?

On one link provided the intake valve "weight" was 40% less compared to 502. That caught my eye.

Jeff

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
So in a nut shell 504 surpasses 502 in terms that 504 would be suitable for newer technologies like Direct Injection?

On one link provided the intake valve "weight" was 40% less compared to 502. That caught my eye.

Jeff

504.00 is superior when it comes to deposits and preservation of emission system. That doe not mean it will lubricate better. When it comes to lubrication, I doubt M15w30ESP is any better then GC or M1 0W40, but probaby is better for valves etc.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
So in a nut shell 504 surpasses 502 in terms that 504 would be suitable for newer technologies like Direct Injection?

On one link provided the intake valve "weight" was 40% less compared to 502. That caught my eye.

Jeff

Yes, 504 00 surpasses VW 502 00 in all areas and can be used in place of it. It's basically higher-quality synthetic (more PAO or GTL), like Pennzoil Ultra, Amsoil, etc.

No, the valve-weight increase is in comparison to a poor-quality reference oil (probably with no or little detergents in it), not to a VW 502 00 oil.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
So in a nut shell 504 surpasses 502 in terms that 504 would be suitable for newer technologies like Direct Injection?

On one link provided the intake valve "weight" was 40% less compared to 502. That caught my eye.

Jeff

Yes, 504 00 surpasses VW 502 00 in all areas and can be used in place of it. It's basically higher-quality synthetic (more PAO or GTL), like Pennzoil Ultra, Amsoil, etc.

No, the valve-weight increase is in comparison to a poor-quality reference oil (probably with no or little detergents in it), not to a VW 502 00 oil.

Did you actually ever saw valves of TSI using 502.00 Full SAPS oil?
It is the question of how much sulfated ash is in the oil. VW 502.00 is Full-SAPS oil, VW 504.00 is Low-SAPS oil.
When it comes to lubrication, VW504.00 can be of lower quality. I would say that PU Ultra Euro L is inferior comapare to GC or M1 0W40. Only advantage is lower valve deposits.
M1 5W30 ESP could be good oil. I put in the car yesterday, will see how is it gonna hold on after 5k when I do UOA.

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

So are the "saps" being referred to as anti wear? I figured the high saps oil was just to combat acids? I wouldn't think 502 oils would actually lubricate better. How could they if 504 surpasses 502 in the tests?

I would rather have less engine wear and dirty valves that can be cleaned every 60k miles vs clean valves and a wore out turbo our what not.

I'm thinking as for wear where do they place? Equal?

Jeff

 

[Gokhan]

Briefly: Low-SAPS (= low metal, P, and S content) has to do with emissions (especially catalyst) durability. Too much detergents (which contain the Ca and Mg metals, hence contributing to overall sulphated ash) can also increase wear and too little P (ZDDP) could increase wear. Detergents also determine the TBN. I would avoid extended-drain oils (high-initial TBN etc.) unless I am doing extended drains. It's always hard to tell which oil provides less wear, if not impossible.

This said, how is VW 504 00 low-SAPS and VW 502 00 high-SAPS? They have the same limit of 1.5% sulphated ash (total metal content) and neither limits ZDDP (phosphorus). Just because Mobil 1 5W-30 ESP is low-SAPS and satisfies VW 504 00 doesn't mean VW 504 00 is a low-SAPS spec.

Valve-deposits thing has probably more to do with the base-stock quality (11% NOACK vs. 13% NOACK).

I will say it one more time: The main difference between 504 00 and 502 00 is the base-stock quality (NOACK volatility).

No one knows which oil provides more wear protection. Mobil 1 0W-30 ESP should be of good quality. Mobil 1 0W-40 should provide similar or better wear protection. It can't be certified for VW 504 00 because it's xW-40 weight. I don't expect the Pennzoil Ultra to be much different in wear protection.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Briefly: Low-SAPS (= low metal, P, and S content) has to do with emissions (especially catalyst) durability. Too much detergents (which contain the Ca and Mg metals, hence contributing to overall sulphated ash) can also increase wear and too little P (ZDDP) could increase wear. Detergents also determine the TBN. I would avoid extended-drain oils (high-initial TBN etc.) unless I am doing extended drains. It's always hard to tell which oil provides less wear, if not impossible.

This said, how is VW 504 00 low-SAPS and VW 502 00 high-SAPS? They have the same limit of 1.5% sulphated ash (total metal content) and neither limits ZDDP (phosphorus).

Valve-deposits thing has probably more to do with the base-stock quality (11% NOACK vs. 13% NOACK).

I will say it one more time: The main difference between 504 00 and 502 00 is the base-stock quality.

No one knows which oil provides more wear protection. Mobil 1 0W-30 ESP should be of good quality. Mobil 1 0W-40 should provide similar or better wear protection. It can't be certified for VW 504 00 because it's xW-40 weight. I don't expect the Pennzoil Ultra to be much different in wear protection.


Base stock? You have VW 504.00 that are mainly Group III and have 502.00 that are 100% PAO (Motul) or very high content of PAO (GC is not 100% combination of PAO and Ester).
M1 0W30 ESP is not VW504.00 compliant at all!

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
Base stock? You have VW 504.00 that are mainly Group III and have 502.00 that are 100% PAO (Motul) or very high content of PAO (GC is not 100% combination of PAO and Ester).
M1 0W30 ESP is not VW504.00 compliant at all!

There is so much misinformation here.

M1 5W-30 ESP is VW 504 00 compliant: Reference
VW 504 00 specifies better base stock (11% NOACK) than VW 502 00 (13% NOACK): Reference (see page 146)
NOACK determines the base-stock quality for a given cold-start viscosity: Reference

Last but not least, actual base stocks used in an oil are neither known nor a certain base stock is required by an OEM/API/ACEA/ILSAC spec. OEMs/API/ACEA/ILSAC only specify the NOACK, not the base-stock type.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Base stock? You have VW 504.00 that are mainly Group III and have 502.00 that are 100% PAO (Motul) or very high content of PAO (GC is not 100% combination of PAO and Ester).
M1 0W30 ESP is not VW504.00 compliant at all!

There is so much misinformation here.

M1 0W-30 ESP is VW 504 00 compliant: Reference
VW 504 00 specifies better base stock (11% NOACK) than VW 502 00 (13% NOACK): Reference (see page 146)
NOACK determines the base-stock quality for a given cold-start viscosity: Reference

Last but not least, actual base stocks used in an oil are neither known nor a certain base stock is required by an OEM/API/ACEA/ILSAC spec. OEMs/API/ACEA/ILSAC only specify the NOACK, not the base-stock type.


That is Mobil1 5W30 ESP NOT 0W30! You mentioned before 0W30 not 5W30, so I just wanted to clarify that. It is also predominantly GroupIII oil with SOME PAO and Ester.
I have M1 5W30 ESP in my car now.
NOACK is important, but 11% is not very good value. MB 229.5 and 229.51 are much better reference.
Redline has NOACK of 6%, GC has below 10%, PU Euro 5W40 and L version should have below 10% because 5W40 meets MB 229.5 and L meets 229.51. And yes, base stock does not mean oil cannot meet OEM spec, and you have some very good GroupIII oils such as Pentosin or M1 0W40.