"Synthetic" oil filter nonsense

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: Zhukov
Call me old-fashioned, but what the heck is this nonsense about? What does "synthetic" even mean in the context of an oil filter?

Furthermore, I see an explosion of expensive oil filters all over the place. I guess they're trying to guilt you into buying an expensive filter. When is the last time you heard someone having an an issue due to the oil filter (assuming a halfway decent filter was used)?


You are seriously misinformed friend. A standard oil filter uses cellulose(paper) to filter the oil. It is a major restriction. Not so with synthetic media. It's usually an ultra thin filament of plastic that is all woven into a cloth type which ends up having smaller passages for the oil to flow through but there is exponentially more pathways to filter and clog,hence an synthetic media filter lasts longer in service because of the extra oil filtering passageways.
Please correct me if I'm wrong with my explanation or if I miscommunicated in some way.
Thanks

 

[Zhukov]

OK - so synthetic media is "better". Question is: Does that actually translate into something you can quantifiably measure? Take two hypothetical identical cars, drive them in an identical manner, and the only difference is the oil filter being used.

Will the difference in the oil filter being used manifest itself at all over the service life of the engine?

 

[surfstar]

Originally Posted By: Zhukov
Originally Posted By: TurboJim
Originally Posted By: Zhukov
What does "synthetic" even mean in the context of an oil filter?


The filter media is synthetic.


As compared to?


non-synthetic

 

[Zhukov]

Originally Posted By: surfstar
Originally Posted By: Zhukov
Originally Posted By: TurboJim


The filter media is synthetic.


As compared to?


non-synthetic

You got me.

Sorry - I had read later down and my original post was answered so I changed it to ask another question.

 

[Jim Allen]

Distance Plus is a blended media, I checked before I made my list, as is the M1 and the P and the K&Ns. That's not bad but you just can't put them into the "full synthetic" category.

 

[gaijinnv]

Toyota stock filter (left) is a cellulose filter while the Toyota TRD filter (right) is a 100% synthetic glass/polyester filter that's 98% efficient at 20 microns:

 

[Jim Allen]

Originally Posted By: Zhukov
OK - so synthetic media is "better". Question is: Does that actually translate into something you can quantifiably measure? Take two hypothetical identical cars, drive them in an identical manner, and the only difference is the oil filter being used.

Will the difference in the oil filter being used manifest itself at all over the service life of the engine?


Excellent question! The answer was hidden in my diatribe above but I'll spell it out better here.

In the case of a normal, OEM proscribed OCI... there is no test data that proves there is a substantial difference in wear. For the most part, at a "normal" OCI, there is no payback for the extra money a full syn fitler, or even a super-premium filter, costs.

That said, though it's almost impossibly difficult to show (the tests would be long-term, expensive and elaborate and not justifiable), the experts theorize that there IS a lessening of wear with super clean oil vs moderately dirty oil. It's just small and likely doesn't justify the expense necessary to make it happen. "No engine was ever harmed by oil that was too clean," is a great quote from an oil professional whose name I do not recall.

There are some potential side benefits in some cases that may or may not be important either to the driver or to the life of the car:

-Lower DP means the the filter flows better and will bypass less at the typical times that may happen. Fewer bypasses means less unfiltered oil will get to teh vitals.

-Higher capacity means the DP will remain lower at the end of the OCI, thus reducing bypass events at the end of the OCI.

-Cleaner oil means the additive package is less stressed than if the oil is dirtier, so even at a shortish (OE duration) OCI, the chances that acid formation, and other negative effect that occur at the end of an OCI, are less. Yes, this is plucking at hairs but it is the foundation of why a syn filter is, or can be, a vital part of an extended OCI.

 

[Jim Allen]

Originally Posted By: gaijinnv
Toyota stock filter (left) is a cellulose filter while the Toyota TRD filter (right) is a 100% synthetic glass/polyester filter that's 98% efficient at 20 microns:



Thanks! Another one to add to the list. Do you know who makes it?

 

[gaijinnv]

Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
Originally Posted By: gaijinnv
Toyota stock filter (left) is a cellulose filter while the Toyota TRD filter (right) is a 100% synthetic glass/polyester filter that's 98% efficient at 20 microns:



Thanks! Another one to add to the list. Do you know who makes it?


It is toll manufactured by Fram (formerly Champion Labs) for Toyota/TRD. See other brands made by Fram for others on right side of this page:

Champion Labs / Fram

 

[Zhukov]

Originally Posted By: Jim Allen


In the case of a normal, OEM proscribed OCI... there is no test data that proves there is a substantial difference in wear. For the most part, at a "normal" OCI, there is no payback for the extra money a full syn fitler, or even a super-premium filter, costs.

That said, though it's almost impossibly difficult to show (the tests would be long-term, expensive and elaborate and not justifiable), the experts theorize that there IS a lessening of wear with super clean oil vs moderately dirty oil. It's just small and likely doesn't justify the expense necessary to make it happen. "No engine was ever harmed by oil that was too clean," is a great quote from an oil professional whose name I do not recall.


It makes sense the cleaner oil is better - it just remains to be seen if the differences would be quantifiable over the normal life of a car. Oil filters are old technology for the most part, and manufacturers aren't making a lot of money at $4/pop. Now comes synthetic media, and voila - $12 oil filters with significantly higher margins. You can pass off the higher cost due to the filter being "better" to the average customer.

Think of the A/C filters we've been buying for decades - the blue spun glass ones. Along come the "high efficiency" filters, and prices go from 98 cents to $10/filter. People assume that they are actually cleaning the air in their house, when all the filter does is keep the coils clean. According to an A/C guy I trust, that's actually worse in the long run (restricted air flow).

So yeah - I agree that the new filters are better. I still question if it's worth the extra expense.

 

[Zhukov]

Originally Posted By: gaijinnv
Toyota stock filter (left) is a cellulose filter while the Toyota TRD filter (right) is a 100% synthetic glass/polyester filter that's 98% efficient at 20 microns:

I've been running those Toyota filters in my Tundra for almost 100,000 miles, and the motor is still purring along. My guess is that if the engine dies, it won't be because of a [censored] oil filter.

 

[Errtt]

Synthetic oil > synthetic filter
Conventional oil > conventional filter

wonder if anyone thinks of it in those terms... lol
Just had to say it

 

[gaijinnv]

Originally Posted By: Zhukov
Originally Posted By: gaijinnv
Toyota stock filter (left) is a cellulose filter while the Toyota TRD filter (right) is a 100% synthetic glass/polyester filter that's 98% efficient at 20 microns:

I've been running those Toyota filters in my Tundra for almost 100,000 miles, and the motor is still purring along. My guess is that if the engine dies, it won't be because of a [censored] oil filter.

So why, exactly, did you start this thread?

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: RamFan
Originally Posted By: Falken
It isn't to make you feel guilty.

It is simply because some people, who had synthetic in their car from new, can go 10,000 miles each OCI.

The synthetic wire backed media is just there to take more of a beating and hold the extra dirt of the longer OCI.

So, if you go twice as long on a filter that costs a few dollars more, and you aren't changing as often...


This. It isn't a matter of protecting better, it's a matter of protecting longer.


Absurd. It has to perform to the spec by the manufacturer. So it has to protect the exact same for a longer time.
Now is it cost effective,yes,if you run the filter,longer and acquire enough miles to equal out the additional initial cost.
I feel as though the premium filters cost more than the standard by more than double,so I'd need to run the filter twice as long.
I'm changing my filter every second change unless the engine isn't of known history and potential for deposit loading fast until clean.
So I stock up on napa gold at napa every February so I don't even think about it anymore.

 

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: Zhukov
Originally Posted By: Jim Allen


In the case of a normal, OEM proscribed OCI... there is no test data that proves there is a substantial difference in wear. For the most part, at a "normal" OCI, there is no payback for the extra money a full syn fitler, or even a super-premium filter, costs.

That said, though it's almost impossibly difficult to show (the tests would be long-term, expensive and elaborate and not justifiable), the experts theorize that there IS a lessening of wear with super clean oil vs moderately dirty oil. It's just small and likely doesn't justify the expense necessary to make it happen. "No engine was ever harmed by oil that was too clean," is a great quote from an oil professional whose name I do not recall.


It makes sense the cleaner oil is better - it just remains to be seen if the differences would be quantifiable over the normal life of a car. Oil filters are old technology for the most part, and manufacturers aren't making a lot of money at $4/pop. Now comes synthetic media, and voila - $12 oil filters with significantly higher margins. You can pass off the higher cost due to the filter being "better" to the average customer.

Think of the A/C filters we've been buying for decades - the blue spun glass ones. Along come the "high efficiency" filters, and prices go from 98 cents to $10/filter. People assume that they are actually cleaning the air in their house, when all the filter does is keep the coils clean. According to an A/C guy I trust, that's actually worse in the long run (restricted air flow).

So yeah - I agree that the new filters are better. I still question if it's worth the extra expense.

I agree.

A while ago someone had a Volvo with 1 million miles without these fancy "Synthetic Filters". Many cars had over 500k miles with el-cheapo filters.

I don't plan to buy any high price fancy "Synthetic Filter" soon.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Errtt
Synthetic oil > synthetic filter
Conventional oil > conventional filter

wonder if anyone thinks of it in those terms... lol

Well, some of the filter marketing departments are pushing that.

 

[webfors]

Under a normal OCI there's no need for anything but a quality conventional filter. I use P Classic 14612 for the subaru, but that's after cutting open several of them and being satisfied with the construction.

That being said, I do have a P Syn 14612 on there right now and a couple Fram Ultra 7317 in the stash that I got a deal on.

I should be running the higher end filters for 2 OCI (1 Year) but the car wouldn't outlast my filter stash

 

[Zhukov]

Originally Posted By: gaijinnv


So why, exactly, did you start this thread?

Trying to get information and opinions on the new filters. I have learned that the media is indeed significantly different and offers advantages. On the other hand, I still doubt they present a significant advantage for MOST people. I'm always happy to evaluate new information.

Heck, with the NAPA Platinums on sale right now, I might pick up a few.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Can't go wrong with a full synthetic media filter as long as you can justify the higher cost.

 

[BlueOvalFitter]

By making this statement I am breaking 2 of my biggest Cardinal Sins in the oil filter world;
1) I would use a FU. (Sin #1- It's a FRAM.)
2) I would extend my OCI to 7.5K miles. (Sin #2- It's 1.5K miles more than my normal OCI.)