Losing faith in FP60

[Intelman34]

Am I the only one frustrated by the lack of info on what FP60 actually does?!? I have send them a few emails asking for at least some info, but have never received a response.

I have been using nothing but FP60 in my Duramax diesel (and before that in my Powerstroke) as I assumed it to be the best fuel additive for my truck.

For the past few tanks, I switched to the gray bottle of Power Serviced and noticed the truck rattles less (I use a programmer that adds a ton of power and increases timing rattle) and gas mileage has been better.

FP60 does not have published info on cetane increases, its ability to handle water in fuel, its ability to lower gelling point/CFPP, and just about any other info. All they say is that it lubricates and cleans.... just like every other product on the market.

I actually recommended FP60 to my girlfriends father who is a fleet manager for a large construction company. They tried it and discontinued use immediately as they began to have gelling problems and noticed no benefits from it.

Maybe FP60 is more geared to gasoline?

Does anyone have any REAL info on this product? If not, I think I am going to switch to something that I can actually find hard info on.

 

[Strjock81]

I have never used FP and continue to use diesel kleen (silver bottle power service) and have had great success along with stanadyne and even neutra.

I too have a hard time buying the cure-all wonder additive that is FP. Thus the reason I have not tried it. The website is cheesy, the details are limited, and no one really knows much about it.

If Terry Dyson wasn't pimping this product all over BITOG no one would think it was any different than any of the other fuel additives out there.

It may work great, I don't know. I have been tempted to try it in the past but it seems like the diesel additives have more to offer me in their packages.

I know I will get flamed for this but so be it. There is clearly "herd instinct" going on here in regards to FP, and a lot of placebo type reactions to it. If I see some tangible proof of anything (like in ARX pics) then I will gladly eat some piping hot crow.

 

[Terry]

WOW, pimp and my name in the same sentence... not sure thats a good thing.

I genuinely in good faith have recommended products with solid chemistries here that I use and have validated with oil analysis.

Many of the popularly accepted diesel fuel adds HARM the bearings in your engines or do nothing to DROP NOx or reduce SOOT. I see it in oil analysis all the time. The place that means the most to me not some bench testing that is not your unit.

Strjock81, you've never used Lubecontrols FP60 additive but you sure act like you KNOW that the above mentioned adds are better. Please be more fair to the product than that. I don't care about crow eating but for the $ I do not see as good a diesel fuel add on the market as FP60 and soon FP3000.

Intelman34, I share your frustration from a technical point of view but the REALITY is this. If the formula of FP60 was given out freely the company would be destroyed. Lubecontrol is small and competition is stiff.

I have shared as much tech data here as I was allowed from our testing of the products.

Gelling with FP60, I don't buy that. Its been in use for 60 years in cold weather climates with no gelling issues, as long as the fuel was winterized or blended for the cold climate. There is no wax in FP60 to gel. If your girl friends Dad had untreated #2 in Wisconsin then sure it will gel, thats not FP60's fault.

FP60 is not a cetane booster, it is a cleaner and lubricant that does improve combustion energy.

What I do know more about as far as bench and standardized testing is FP3000. That product will be released any day. I was asked to assist in formulation validation tests and it will do everything FP60 does with EPA registration and modern testing data collected. It is EPA registered now.

LC just finished EPA bench and OTR HDD fuel economy testing ( all DD60 series 4 cycle engines) and we saw 2.6% gains in MPG on class 8 trucks. These tests are biased against the additive so in the real world MPG gains could easily be 6% or so while adding lubricity, cleaning, (UCL) and all with a real honest chemistry. It is unique as no other fuel add is using the chemistry FP3000 is.

I'm no pimp, but I am honest and would share more if I could and hopefully in the future I can.

I am only a humble INDEPENDENT tribologist/oil analyst not a marketer of any product.

I run both FP60 and FP3000 in my cars and recommend BOTH to my oil analysis customers because for the money and effectiveness, WITHOUT harming the bearings in the host engine, they cannot be beat.

Please be patient as the LCD guys are trying to take chemistries that have been effectively hidden from the public for many years, because Odis did not have the cash to broadly market.

One of the cool things about this site is you can flame on a product. You must realize that not every company is a major player. They may have a unique and effective chemistry but since you have seen so much bull poopoo over the years you automatically think that they are defective when the company is just doing the best it can with the capitol available.

Terry

 

[Terry]

BTW, faith is not something you need in a product, it either works for you or it does not.

Please use UOA to verify in an accurate and affordable way what any add or chemistry does in YOUR actual unit.

Terry

www.dysonanalysis.com

 

[Strjock81]

I didn't mean to come across so nasty in my post, I read it again and it really does come across that way.

I meant by pimping Terry that you promote this product and its benefits.

I don't mean to say that some diesel additives work better for me than FP when I have not used FP ever. I said they have worked well and have not had a justifiable reason to switch to something else that seems to mystical.

I don't have a good reason why, but when I read the website and look at the whole thing, it does nothing to sell me. In fact the site makes me think of all the other snake oil sites out there trying to sell something. If it weren't for Terry's backing on this stuff I would have never even entertained the thought of trying it.

Screw it I am going to order a gallon, it won't break me, maybe it is great.

 

[Intelman34]

Do you know how FP60 or FP3000 handles water in fuel?

I guess I would just like to see more info as FP60 is not highly regarded by many diesel pickup owners. It discouraged me that when I asked how the FP60 product compares to other popular diesel additives, my emails went unanswered.

My girlfriend just bought a 2006 VW Beetle TDI so we will be using a good amount of additive and I just want something that protects and maintains the fuel system for it.

For my truck, I want something that also protects and maintains, but has the best chance of a possible power increase.

Thanks for all the info.

Strjock81: What kind of diesel are you going to be using FP60 in? I'd like to know what you think of it.

[ March 29, 2006, 12:37 AM: Message edited by: Intelman34 ]

 

[Terry]

I am not offended fellas. I guess I am just kinda conservative when it comes to the terms used.

Intel I am sorry for the lack of feedback from LCD but if you asked for proprietary data they may have thought you a competitor "pimping" them for data or maybe they just couldn't answer for fear of giving up very sensitive info. I know that in the consultant position the LCD guys are really straight arrows who are just trying to get product to market that is solid.

I want to share what I can and need to dislcose I have no express permission to tell you what I am sharing here so this is not LCD talking and they can correct me if needed.

FP60 and FP3000 dry water out of the fuel at some level ( I have not measured this capability) aside from seeing before and after UOA of condensate issues in problem diesels.

What does not get dried is SAFELY carried into the combust process and is used for improved performance. Maybe a chemist like Molakule can explain more scientifically than I.

The treated diesel that gets to the combustion chamber is lubricated and modified so that the verifed MPG gains we just demonstrated at SWRI are safe and lubricious.

There are diesel fuel adds that insist on not carrying any water and those of opposite chemistry theories that carry it all in emulsion and both swear the other is terrible. FP60 and FP3000 seem able to do both well. A very unique capability.

I know in recent testing of FP3000 we compared and used as a guide the most recent CAT fuels specs using low sulfur diesel. When added to fuel, both products meet CAT limits for BOTH diesel and gasoline fuels specs. The ability to compliment a fuel and not harm the chemistry is a delicate balance. Note many adds commonly accepted ( some mentioned above will actually increase bearing wear when they blow-by the CC)and get to the oil. However few owners use UOA in the smaller diesel pickups so don't even empiricaly measure that damage but boy they sure like that XXX product and add it every tank!

In formulating you must make a decision on what you are trying to achieve. Cetane and PPD adds are very common and cheap. With the changes in diesel fuel being mandated those adds will not be needed as much as in the past. FYI, When ULSD hits guys it is going to be ugly for lubricity and cleaning capability!

DysonAnalysis was asked to help get FP3000 past the EPA hurdle, improve MPG,lower soot production, and UCL too, all without changing the positives of FP60 lubricity, water handling,cleaning ( without increasing wear on the fuel system), and fuel stabilization. We did just that in spades and in about 2 months, I am very proud of that for LCD.

Intel if you need extra cetane boost, don't rely on FP60 ,FP3000 as cetane boosters. In about a year all the fuels will have more than enough cetane or they won't pass the new fuels requirements so we didn't focus on that aspect.

Give LCD a chance and they should be releasing more data in the coming months.

In the meantime for all the aspects mentioned above use FP60 and back up your trial with good MPG records and UOA. My diesel powered oil analysis customers do and I have not yet had one stop using the products.

Terry

[ March 29, 2006, 01:46 AM: Message edited by: Terry ]

 

[TheTanSedan]

A UOA is cheap. Try it.

 

[LCD]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Intelman34:
Do you know how FP60 or FP3000 handles water in fuel?

I guess I would just like to see more info as FP60 is not highly regarded by many diesel pickup owners. It discouraged me that when I asked how the FP60 product compares to other popular diesel additives, my emails went unanswered.

My girlfriend just bought a 2006 VW Beetle TDI so we will be using a good amount of additive and I just want something that protects and maintains the fuel system for it.

For my truck, I want something that also protects and maintains, but has the best chance of a possible power increase.

Thanks for all the info.

Strjock81: What kind of diesel are you going to be using FP60 in? I'd like to know what you think of it.

---

Intelman....first off we are sorry to hear of your frustrations. We answer ALL emails so it is hard to believe you asked us questions and they were not answered.

Please send me the email you sent [email protected] and I'll answer it.

Also your views are in the minority for sure for diesel ownwers using FP60. Most of our users are diesel owners and feel FP60 is head and sholders above any other additive out there.

Large fleets that have been using FP60 would beg to differ with your comments and they have been using for many years...some over 20 years.

 

[ChiTDI]

Good discussion. Quality questions and sensible answers.I've been looking for the "ultimate" additive for four years, and the best I've found is the FP60. Good UOAs and $ value. Hope the FP3000 is even better!

 

[TomJones76]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Terry:

SNIP
What I do know more about as far as bench and standardized testing is FP3000. That product will be released any day. I was asked to assist in formulation validation tests and it will do everything FP60 does with EPA registration and modern testing data collected. It is EPA registered now.

LC just finished EPA bench and OTR HDD fuel economy testing ( all DD60 series 4 cycle engines) and we saw 2.6% gains in MPG on class 8 trucks. These tests are biased against the additive so in the real world MPG gains could easily be 6% or so while adding lubricity, cleaning, (UCL) and all with a real honest chemistry. It is unique as no other fuel add is using the chemistry FP3000 is.
SNIP

---

Are EPA validation and registration test results public information?

 

[LCD]

TomJones...once we get the final reports on the SwRI test it will be made public.

 

[TomJones76]

Awesome. Thanks.
I want to love your product, but banks of test data will make it easier.

 

[LCD]

Tom....agreed. We will post everything we have once final reports are completed.

FYI...on our J1321 fuel economy test at SWRI we were told no EPA registered additives have ever shown anything significant (significant being over 1%). One of our trucks showed at the highest...over 3%.

This is special and exciting for our company.

 

[mshu7]

Terry,

This is somewhat off-topic but I thought I'd ask since we're talking about FP60 and the upcoming FP3000.

With Ethanol becoming more and more popular in gasoline, will this affect the performance of FP60/FP3000? I always fill-up at Shell and recently they posted stickers on the 87 octane about the gasoline containing up to 10% ethanol. In the past I've tried to stay away from places that have Ethanol mixed in their gasoline. But it sounds like it's going to be hard to avoid anymore.

I've been using FP60 since last summer and plan to purchase FP3000 when it is released. I'm just wondering if Ethanol is going to have any negative affect on either additive.

Also, is the use of Ethanol a good thing for engines? I know it's typically cheaper to produce and purchase at the pump, and better for the environment versus regular gasoline, but when it's mixed with gasoline, is it going to have a negative impact on the performance of the engine?

I'd appreciate your feedback!

 

[mshu7]

Terry,

Thanks for your input. That is good to hear.

Living in Indiana, I expect to see many E85 stations popping up. There is one being built in my hometown in NW Indiana and they are trying to build one in a town just 5 miles away from me right now.

I think GM made a good move with the E85 thing. If I'm correct, the GM E85 vehicles cost no more than their gasoline only vehicles. I think customers will be drawn to the fact that they don't have to pay out thousands of dollars (ala Honda & Toyota hybrids) for an E85 vehicle that also has a cylinder deactivation system that also saves fuel.

 

[dailydriver]

Terry or lcd; is the FP3000 just as dual purpose as the FP60?? (i.e.; is either more effective in or more geared towards a gas engine than the other?) I also have not been able to buy non 10% ethanol fuel, and with a high performance, fairly high compression (10.1:1), extremely hard driven engine I'm getting a little concerned, especially in the summer. Is one better than the other for my application, as I want to try one of them?

 

[boxcartommie22]

i use shell here in denver and i asked 3 tanker driver's and they said no ethenol in the off season here in denver..ethenol season is from mid nov-mid feb..the rest of the stations cont. to use ethanol because of the tax breaks....i absolutely love lubecontrol products!!!

 

[boxcartommie22]

any kind of ethanol is a horrible additive. we are being sold again another bill of goods...

 

[pastmaster]

I like the way this topic was handled by all concerned. It's great to see courtesy, consideration and education to resolve the question. My Salutations to ALL!

The Ethanol subject was discussed in this post as it relates to the topic. I would like to see further education on Ethanol. Here in Michigan, where we have a corn surplus and are building new refineries to process it, we need the real truth on what it really does and is. Lots of public funds are involved now and will be in the future. If it fails, can we can drink the stuff?