K&N destroys another engine

[slickrocko1]

Originally Posted By: punisher
I freely admit I detest K&N filters more than most. I have seen the damage they cause, but this one isn't the fault of K&N. Installer/user error.


I agree that it is not all K&N's fault.
That said, K&N is probably the worst filter setup made for larger engines like diesels, where LARGE amounts of air are used by the turbo's and the large displacement of the engine.
I have seen and repaired several Cummins engines where the turbo and intake tubes were dusted with blow sand, and the filters in some cases were sucked full of holes. More air flow/less restriction, means more chance of dust getting into a $10,000 dollar engine, and also polluting the oil. If you want to spend lots of money replacing engines in a $60,000 dollar truck, go ahead, Put a K&N Filter in! I will be employed for a long time that way.

 

[Jim Allen]

Originally Posted By: slickrocko1
Originally Posted By: punisher
I freely admit I detest K&N filters more than most. I have seen the damage they cause, but this one isn't the fault of K&N. Installer/user error.


I agree that it is not all K&N's fault.
That said, K&N is probably the worst filter setup made for larger engines like diesels, where LARGE amounts of air are used by the turbo's and the large displacement of the engine.
I have seen and repaired several Cummins engines where the turbo and intake tubes were dusted with blow sand, and the filters in some cases were sucked full of holes. More air flow/less restriction, means more chance of dust getting into a $10,000 dollar engine, and also polluting the oil. If you want to spend lots of money replacing engines in a $60,000 dollar truck, go ahead, Put a K&N Filter in! I will be employed for a long time that way.


I have heard that Cummins put out some warranty paperwork on oiled cotton gauze filters. Legend says it was a warranty denial threat. At one time, someone showed me this purported letter but it was later determined to be a fake (Oh, what lengths some mentally unstable people will go to to tear things down). I've always wanted to know if this letter actually existed and what it said. I could see it happening.

 

[RF Overlord]

Comparing the pics of an authentic K&N and the one in the OP's truck, they certainly don't look the same. It's either a counterfeit or a home-built kludge.

Richard, is the motor actually ruined, or did you just change the oil again and send him on his way?

 

[punisher]

Originally Posted By: Jim Allen

I have heard that Cummins put out some warranty paperwork on oiled cotton gauze filters. Legend says it was a warranty denial threat. At one time, someone showed me this purported letter but it was later determined to be a fake (Oh, what lengths some mentally unstable people will go to to tear things down).


Can't speak for Cummins, but FoMoCo, in the mid 90s had a SSM regarding MAF concerns and oiled filters to the effect,"look for an oiled air filter before wasting warranty time on lean code diags". Killed some of my 12650/15650 novels I used to write up.

About the same time my shop foreman came around to all of us perf/drivability techs and laid out a "2 strike rule" concerning oiled filters. First MAF was on Ford, after that, it might be CP for additional fouled MAFs. Customers were notified of the policy. Whether this was an underground directive from FoMoCo, or something the dealer did to curve warranty trends,I do not know.

For a period of time I know almost every V8 Mustang MAF we swapped was recalled by Ford for examination.

 

[Jim Allen]

Originally Posted By: punisher
Originally Posted By: Jim Allen

I have heard that Cummins put out some warranty paperwork on oiled cotton gauze filters. Legend says it was a warranty denial threat. At one time, someone showed me this purported letter but it was later determined to be a fake (Oh, what lengths some mentally unstable people will go to to tear things down).


Can't speak for Cummins, but FoMoCo, in the mid 90s had a SSM regarding MAF concerns and oiled filters to the effect,"look for an oiled air filter before wasting warranty time on lean code diags". Killed some of my 12650/15650 novels I used to write up.

About the same time my shop foreman came around to all of us perf/drivability techs and laid out a "2 strike rule" concerning oiled filters. First MAF was on Ford, after that, it might be CP for additional fouled MAFs. Customers were notified of the policy. Whether this was an underground directive from FoMoCo, or something the dealer did to curve warranty trends,I do not know.

For a period of time I know almost every V8 Mustang MAF we swapped was recalled by Ford for examination.


I know there was a lot of hype about it but have you read this: MAFs read all the data that goes with it too.

 

[punisher]

Originally Posted By: Jim Allen


I know there was a lot of hype about it but have you read this: MAFs read all the data that goes with it too.


I regard anything posted by K&N and/or its representatives, whether on its website, or forums, as total rubbish-[censored]-bull, etc. K&N has a great marketing dept., and thats about it.

I just shake my head and chuckle when people defend them.

If your car doesn't have a MAF, and is ingesting air that doesn't need to be filtered, then K&Ns will work just fine.

Ahhh, that felt better.

 

[Jim Allen]

Originally Posted By: punisher

I regard anything posted by K&N and/or its representatives, whether on its website, or forums, as total rubbish-[censored]-bull, etc. K&N has a great marketing dept., and thats about it.

I just shake my head and chuckle when people defend them.

If your car doesn't have a MAF, and is ingesting air that doesn't need to be filtered, then K&Ns will work just fine.

Ahhh, that felt better.


So your only counter to the extensive evidence there (and I presume you actually read it) is, "they all lie." Well, that holds about as much water as a bottomless bucket. I have no horse in the race but follow the best evidence available and a statement of "they lie" isn't evidence. You gotta do lots better. And I'd be happy if you could!

K&N has a list of every one of the almost 400 MAFs they have been sent, what tests they ran and what was the status of the unit. Many of the units they have been sent since they started testing years ago didn't test bad at all and the so-called tech that diagnosed the problem as a MAF failure needs to go back to school to learn his trade better. K&N has even sprayed their oil onto a MAF at different airflow rates (with and without ISO test dust) the MAF was hooked up to a device that measures operating parameters and the MAF didn't miss a beat.

After seeing all the material on this, I tried something similar myself on my idling 5.4L Ford and while the engine bucked a little while the oil was spraying, it returned to normal immediately upon stopping the spray. I never bothered to clean the MAF after. That was about 18 months ago. What can I say? They do acknowledge that there are substances that can "poison" a MAF, silicone being the main one. Their main contention is that the substances on that list shouldn't include K&N oil and they back it up with a lot of good material.

So, again, I invite anyone to look at all the material and links on the K&N website: Here and if you can provide some substantive material to counter it (besides "they lie"), I would welcome seeing it and following up on the sources. I don't really care which way it leads but the burden of proof has got to be substantial.

 

[95busa]

I have been running a JLT CAI with a K&N on my mercury for the last 20K. No MAF codes or spontaneous engine destruction yet. I have run K&Ns on other vehicles for quite a few miles also. Strangely when I did a UOA on my old 05 Dodge Ram 1500 4.7L 4x4 QC, the sample showed less silicon than average trends. K&Ns are a decent product. I don't run them on everything, but I do run them, and they are fine.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Originally Posted By: 95busa
I have been running a JLT CAI with a K&N on my mercury for the last 20K. No MAF codes or spontaneous engine destruction yet. I have run K&Ns on other vehicles for quite a few miles also. Strangely when I did a UOA on my old 05 Dodge Ram 1500 4.7L 4x4 QC, the sample showed less silicon than average trends. K&Ns are a decent product. I don't run them on everything, but I do run them, and they are fine.


Two UOI's from Blackstone on my Jeep showed LOWER silicon levels with the K&N FIPK than with the stock airbox. Levels in my F-350 and my Caddy (over 100K on the K&N) are similarly low.

 

[nicholas]

Agreed, this is defiantly not K&N's fault at all. A moronic owner who did not read the proper use for this filter.

Any aftermarket filter installed in this fashion would create the same result!

 

[accent2012]

Just look at the fittings and pieced-together intake tubing.

Lord knows how much sand/dust/water was let through those fittings.

The owner skimped out on after market filter set up, obviously.

 

[RiceCake]

eBay air intakes and filters...because the people who spend years and millions of dollars building and engineering your entire truck just don't know how to build a proper air intake.

 

[NMBurb02]

Originally Posted By: RiceCake
eBay air intakes and filters...because the people who spend years and millions of dollars building and engineering your entire truck just don't know how to build a proper air intake.

Nobody has said that OEMs don't make "proper" air intakes, but that they have to make HP and torque compromises, primarily in order to reduce in-cabin noise. I know my Burb has a huge mirror image Oklahoma-shaped silencer, which is missing on the exact same LM7 engines in Silverados of the same vintage. Check down a few posts, I included photos.

And the aftermarket air intake/filtration companies also spend millions of dollars and years to dyno-tune their intakes to specific applications. K&N Engineer's R&D and manufacturing facilities are here in SoCal and I can attest from personal experience that they are an impressive operation.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: NMBurb02
Originally Posted By: RiceCake
eBay air intakes and filters...because the people who spend years and millions of dollars building and engineering your entire truck just don't know how to build a proper air intake.

Nobody has said that OEMs don't make "proper" air intakes, but that they have to make HP and torque compromises, primarily in order to reduce in-cabin noise. I know my Burb has a huge mirror image Oklahoma-shaped silencer, which is missing on the exact same LM7 engines in Silverados of the same vintage. Check down a few posts, I included photos.

And the aftermarket air intake/filtration companies also spend millions of dollars and years to dyno-tune their intakes to specific applications. K&N Engineer's R&D and manufacturing facilities are here in SoCal and I can attest from personal experience that they are an impressive operation.


Good point. But in reference to the vehicle in the OP, it is a Ford Raptor. I'm doubting much in the way of "compromises" were made in designing the air intake tract for what is essentially a road legal Baja truck

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: RiceCake
...because the people who spend years and millions of dollars building and engineering your entire truck just don't know how to build a proper air intake.


and the people who design and build your game consoles don't ?

One of the good things about owning stuff is that you own it, and you can do what you like to it, with your money on your gear.

Nissan did a stupid install on my main vehicle, meaning that it sucked water after 50-60m in 3-4" of standing water..lots of people had the same experience, so modded their air intakes to suit...in My case, Nissan sold me the kit.

 

[RiceCake]

Originally Posted By: NMBurb02
Nobody has said that OEMs don't make "proper" air intakes, [...] And the aftermarket air intake/filtration companies also spend millions of dollars and years to dyno-tune their intakes to specific applications.


Hence why I said eBay. Go to eBay and see how many generic shiney "boosts horsepower, mileage, engine life, sex appeal of the driver" products you can find that fit a thousand different cars from China. Sarcasm. Figure it out. Replacing an intake with an eBay special is almost unanimously a lost pursuit of "better".

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Good point. But in reference to the vehicle in the OP, it is a Ford Raptor. I'm doubting much in the way of "compromises" were made in designing the air intake tract for what is essentially a road legal Baja truck

They probably did make compromises if you're talking about pure horsepower from the engine in all honesty. Most air intakes are carefully tuned plenums that are designed to get you more torque at lower RPM. That doesn't sell though, because torque is hard to properly explain to regular people. More top end horsepower on the redline by opening up the intake sounds like it should be "faster" but I'd be more inclined to use a properly tuned intake (quality aftermarket or OEM, not fleaBay).

Originally Posted By: Shannow
and the people who design and build your game consoles don't ?

One of the good things about owning stuff is that you own it, and you can do what you like to it, with your money on your gear.


What do game consoles have to do with vehicle intakes? Clearly you're still all bitter. But really, that's what is so great about the internet; own what you want, do what you want, but don't expect people to kiss your [censored] and tell you you're smart and independent when its incredibly stupid, like putting an eBay intake on a truck and ingesting a few gallons of water because of it

 

[NMBurb02]

I apologize for missing the sarcasm and not realizing you were bashing eBay "make your own" intakes. I took it as a swing at quality aftermarket parts developers/manufacturers. Again, I apologize.
Originally Posted By: RiceCake
Most air intakes are carefully tuned plenums that are designed to get you more torque at lower RPM. That doesn't sell though, because torque is hard to properly explain to regular people.

Ford is trying to change that with some of the F-150 commercials they have been running here in SoCal for probably a year or more. "Torque is what opens your beer bottle" and other manly everyday examples.

 

[accent2012]

Originally Posted By: NMBurb02
I apologize for missing the sarcasm and not realizing you were bashing eBay "make your own" intakes. I took it as a swing at quality aftermarket parts developers/manufacturers. Again, I apologize.
Originally Posted By: RiceCake
Most air intakes are carefully tuned plenums that are designed to get you more torque at lower RPM. That doesn't sell though, because torque is hard to properly explain to regular people.

Ford is trying to change that with some of the F-150 commercials they have been running here in SoCal for probably a year or more. "Torque is what opens your beer bottle" and other manly everyday examples.


torque is what gives your woman that shiner after you pound a few coors after a long day at the coal mine.

 

[accent2012]

Anyone else notice that the engine bay in the original post is not a ford raptor?

Coolant reservoir tank is on the wrong side of the engine bay. Upper coolant hose is also on the wrong side.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: accent2012
Originally Posted By: NMBurb02
I apologize for missing the sarcasm and not realizing you were bashing eBay "make your own" intakes. I took it as a swing at quality aftermarket parts developers/manufacturers. Again, I apologize.
Originally Posted By: RiceCake
Most air intakes are carefully tuned plenums that are designed to get you more torque at lower RPM. That doesn't sell though, because torque is hard to properly explain to regular people.

Ford is trying to change that with some of the F-150 commercials they have been running here in SoCal for probably a year or more. "Torque is what opens your beer bottle" and other manly everyday examples.


torque is what gives your woman that shiner after you pound a few coors after a long day at the coal mine.


Ohhhhhhhh.
Back to topic.
I've used k&n filters for years. I always screwed something up. Whether it was the maf or dirt ingested into the intake tract,I'm much happier with the dry Amsoil ones. I've yet to see any dirt in the intake tract with one of those. And maintenance is a snap