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#2550069 - 02/27/12 10:54 AM Engine wear and E85
friendly_jacek Offline


Registered: 05/04/03
Posts: 6597
Loc: southeast US
or rather lack of.

Not sure if posted before.



http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=143372

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#2550080 - 02/27/12 11:03 AM Re: Engine wear and E85 [Re: friendly_jacek]
cchase Offline


Registered: 11/03/09
Posts: 4021
Loc: New England
Where is the cross-hatching?

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#2550093 - 02/27/12 11:09 AM Re: Engine wear and E85 [Re: cchase]
friendly_jacek Offline


Registered: 05/04/03
Posts: 6597
Loc: southeast US
Originally Posted By: cchase
Where is the cross-hatching?


good question.

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#2550144 - 02/27/12 11:59 AM Re: Engine wear and E85 [Re: friendly_jacek]
Brons2 Offline


Registered: 09/16/03
Posts: 3042
Loc: Austin, Texas
how many miles on that motor?

I will agree that the tops of the pistons look extremely clean.
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#2550145 - 02/27/12 12:02 PM Re: Engine wear and E85 [Re: friendly_jacek]
PZR2874 Offline


Registered: 05/06/11
Posts: 499
Loc: San Antonio, TX
Did he run in that hard where it's all "worn" or is it a load and he was taking a pic at the machine shop before the honing?
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#2550151 - 02/27/12 12:07 PM Re: Engine wear and E85 [Re: PZR2874]
friendly_jacek Offline


Registered: 05/04/03
Posts: 6597
Loc: southeast US
Originally Posted By: PZR2874
Did he run in that hard where it's all "worn" or is it a load and he was taking a pic at the machine shop before the honing?


description in the quoted forum:

Quote:
Engine is SBC 4.145" bore x 3.800" stroke with SRP forged flat top pistons. This is a solid roller cammed engine that is 11.4:1 compression and has been run almost exclusively on E85 since spring 2007. It did have 6 months run time on gasoline before the switch. I was surprised at how clean everything is -- I have NEVER seen pistons this clean after 2 years of use.

There was no ridge at the top of the cylinders, and no scoring or other signs of a lubrication problem in the bores. Engine has 250+ quarter mile passes on it and 15,000 street miles. I cruise on the freeway at 3400-3600 RPM and do NOT take it easy on this thing.

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#2550152 - 02/27/12 12:10 PM Re: Engine wear and E85 [Re: friendly_jacek]
PZR2874 Offline


Registered: 05/06/11
Posts: 499
Loc: San Antonio, TX
So gapless rings then?
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#2550156 - 02/27/12 12:13 PM Re: Engine wear and E85 [Re: friendly_jacek]
NHGUY Offline


Registered: 10/09/11
Posts: 4908
Loc: USA
Cross hatching is the marks left from cylinder honing.Its how the rings break in and make a seal.

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#2550180 - 02/27/12 12:29 PM Re: Engine wear and E85 [Re: friendly_jacek]
PZR2874 Offline


Registered: 05/06/11
Posts: 499
Loc: San Antonio, TX
Correct, but I didn't realize he was using gapless rings... I was looking for the hatching and agreed with everyone else. Still, very clean cylinders.
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2007 Mazdaspeed 3 - 123K
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#2550200 - 02/27/12 12:42 PM Re: Engine wear and E85 [Re: friendly_jacek]
HerrStig Offline


Registered: 08/24/11
Posts: 9550
Loc: Boston, MA
How's the fuel consumption on E85? Just bought a new Poulan 4 cycle snowblower and the manual (I read them) says the warranty is void if more than 10% alcohol is used.


Edited by HerrStig (02/27/12 12:43 PM)

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#2550218 - 02/27/12 12:57 PM Re: Engine wear and E85 [Re: cchase]
friendly_jacek Offline


Registered: 05/04/03
Posts: 6597
Loc: southeast US
Originally Posted By: cchase
Where is the cross-hatching?


the answer is on the page 4

Quote:
cross-hatch still there just doesn't show in the pics. It was lighter than when fresh though. No ridge at top of cylinders. Remember I drove this motor a lot of miles at high RPM on the freeway (3600 RPM) so I expect some wear.


http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=143372&page=4

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#2550264 - 02/27/12 01:42 PM Re: Engine wear and E85 [Re: friendly_jacek]
SteveSRT8 Offline


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 18569
Loc: Sunny Florida
Very nice. I agree those are some clean pistons.

I guess the camera lacked the resolution to show us the cross hatch. otherwise there should be a deep ridge.


Edited by SteveSRT8 (02/27/12 01:45 PM)
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#2550304 - 02/27/12 02:14 PM Re: Engine wear and E85 [Re: friendly_jacek]
friendly_jacek Offline


Registered: 05/04/03
Posts: 6597
Loc: southeast US
I'm thinking E85 could be one of the best combustion chamber cleaners. But, not available in my area.

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#2550313 - 02/27/12 02:18 PM Re: Engine wear and E85 [Re: friendly_jacek]
SEMI_287 Offline


Registered: 02/25/11
Posts: 1291
Loc: Up State NY
What oil was used?
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#2556139 - 03/03/12 09:45 PM Re: Engine wear and E85 [Re: friendly_jacek]
morris Offline


Registered: 08/24/08
Posts: 3681
Loc: ks, wichita
looks like it ran dry.

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#3109583 - 08/29/13 07:52 PM Re: Engine wear and E85 [Re: HerrStig]
outdoorsman310 Offline


Registered: 08/26/13
Posts: 113
Loc: DE
dont do it!

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#3211788 - 12/09/13 10:26 PM Re: Engine wear and E85 [Re: friendly_jacek]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 3165
Loc: Central Iowa
Wow. I feel a lot better using E85 in my 2013 Silverado frequently. Yeah, mpg is not like with gas, but the price differential still makes it more cost effective per mile to use. And you can tell the difference in pep via the seat dyno. E85 definitely puts regular gas to shame on get up and go.
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#3268442 - 02/02/14 08:22 PM Re: Engine wear and E85 [Re: friendly_jacek]
morris Offline


Registered: 08/24/08
Posts: 3681
Loc: ks, wichita
fine if like being locked to only one fuel. get in the middle of nowhere and only reg gasoline? so what do you with 89 octane in a 11 to 1 C.R. time for MMO.

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#3268607 - 02/02/14 10:39 PM Re: Engine wear and E85 [Re: friendly_jacek]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 3165
Loc: Central Iowa
The link to the thread the OP referenced, the guy with the 11:1 CR started out the engine on Premium gasoline for 6 months before going to E85. It would have to be pretty "middle of nowhere" to not be able to get premium. I lived in Delta Junction Alaska for several years. More remote than most folks on this forum will see, and we had Premium available. Bit of a stretch that he would be locked into one fuel.

That is why I like my Flex Fuel Silverado. When combined with a Diablo tuner, I can set the high performance 93 octane tune and use two different fuels, premium and E85. If either was not available, just switch to the 87/89 octane program and can use regular, E10, or E85.
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#3268717 - 02/03/14 02:56 AM Re: Engine wear and E85 [Re: SteveSRT8]
Shannow Offline


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 36907
Loc: 'Stralia
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Very nice. I agree those are some clean pistons.

I guess the camera lacked the resolution to show us the cross hatch. otherwise there should be a deep ridge.


About mid bore on the RHS piston, you can see a "holograph" for want of a better word where the diamon cross hatch is giving a sort of fresnel reflector...but the vertical lines far outweigh that image.

Given that the engine is reputedly turnign 3,600 RPM on the highway, that's a pretty low MEP, which means that the time that the rings are at TDC/BDC, they have lower pressure behind them than one turning (say) 1500RPM and needing twice the torque/MEP per revolution...less impetus for a ridge to be foremed, and less "dwell" with the piston transitioning from hydrodynamic to boundary.

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#3268809 - 02/03/14 07:13 AM Re: Engine wear and E85 [Re: friendly_jacek]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 3165
Loc: Central Iowa
Came across this one on and engine using E85 for over 100,000 miles. Similar engine wear like the OP, but with a standard daily driver type of vehicle. They noticed no ridge on the cylinder, same as the link from the OP.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuOs1yap8mU
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#3474890 - 09/05/14 03:25 PM Re: Engine wear and E85 [Re: friendly_jacek]
Rosetta Offline


Registered: 07/06/14
Posts: 211
Loc: Sta Catarina, Br
And those fairy tales and myths still alive? Ow E25 will ruin your engine ... Doh
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1995 Ford Taurus 3.0 Vulcan 78k miles Mobil 1 5w30
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1997 Kawasaki Ninja ZX9R 38k miles Mobil 1 15w50

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#3475492 - 09/06/14 07:25 AM Re: Engine wear and E85 [Re: friendly_jacek]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 3165
Loc: Central Iowa
It's called the information super highway! confused
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Freedom is not about having the choice to do what you want, but the choice to do what you ought.

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#3475658 - 09/06/14 11:20 AM Re: Engine wear and E85 [Re: friendly_jacek]
Rosetta Offline


Registered: 07/06/14
Posts: 211
Loc: Sta Catarina, Br
I do use my own blends of Hydrated Ethanol (HE) HE70 to HE90's for more than a decade > I can mix any amount since the ethanol nozzle are at one foot from the regular gas, so... < My 1995 Taurus is US imported > gasoline only, original compression chamber values. It ran a lot with all the original parts and loves it! < The mileage drops about 15% at highway. City driving makes the gap wider (20% more to the thirsty side) than the highway driving. The combustion chamber (can't photo up with boroscopes) is clean and no excess carbon abrasives for the compression rings to eat up. I use K&N air filter (on original air box). It's doing 39mpg at highway cruising at 75mph. Mine came from factory with green fuel injectors, its original FFV injectors for export. Fuel pump went by last year (maybe the excess of hydrated ethanol has a hint of guilty in here) and I replaced with a 4 bar Delphy FFV, so the high amount of hydrated ethanol wont hurt a thing and the regulator makes it back to 3 bar. PCM is original gas only version though, not the FFV version. Last spark plugs are one grade hotter than the original ones.
The thing burnt about 425 gallon of pure water in its life, from the hydrated ethanol I added to the fuel mix (since in average, 8% of the ethanol I add is pure water). Ethanol fuel here is about the 92-94GL version FYI. That vapor makes my O2 sensor and catalist converter clean as a whistle, too.
Did the same in a 95 Golf GLX 2.0 8v and the Scooby. The Scooby still has the original Fuel Pump. The Subaru thing is Tough! Ethanol is about 65% the price of regular gas, so a higher consumpton still compensates.


Edited by Rosetta (09/06/14 11:29 AM)
_________________________
1995 Ford Taurus 3.0 Vulcan 78k miles Mobil 1 5w30
1993 Subaru Impreza EJ16 121k miles Mobil 1 15w50
1997 Kawasaki Ninja ZX9R 38k miles Mobil 1 15w50

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#4180147 - 08/17/16 11:10 PM Re: Engine wear and E85 [Re: friendly_jacek]
Warwagon92 Offline


Registered: 08/07/16
Posts: 2
Loc: Texas (TX)
its not from E85, Modern fuel injection has really taken the wear from engines , because it doesnt saturate the oil with fuel and dilute it, I have pulled 200k 350s from suburbans, lt1 350s from old LT1 police cars and they too still have the cross hatching from the honing and no upper ridge wear. this guys had a carb yea , but it wasn't a daily driver and while it has hard miles , it still had low miles , the cleanliness of the pistons is from the E-85. but the bore wear not so much.

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#4254151 - 11/21/16 04:30 AM Re: Engine wear and E85 [Re: Warwagon92]
Shata Offline


Registered: 10/21/16
Posts: 147
Loc: Virginia, usa
I agree with you I mean this engine was driven real hard and always at high Rpms but in normal daily driven engine or one that see occasional spirited driving it's not normal to see smooth cylinders. On low wearing engines you will see cross hatching even on 200k gas engine, at least from photos of tear down engines I've seen.

That e85 is keeping the piston tops real clean. And someone earlier said something about gapless rings, that's not even possible lol they need to have gap either preset or file to fit.
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#4258628 - 11/26/16 03:04 PM Re: Engine wear and E85 [Re: friendly_jacek]
CT8 Online   content


Registered: 10/09/14
Posts: 9280
Loc: Idaho
Probably wear is not so much the fuel [though it is ripe for another discussion] the big problem is what fuel does to the oil. And corrosion problems on shut down and storage.


Edited by CT8 (11/26/16 03:05 PM)

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#4282939 - 12/23/16 06:06 AM Re: Engine wear and E85 [Re: friendly_jacek]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 3165
Loc: Central Iowa
I have run oil samples using E85 and never noticed any difference compared to running non ethanol or E10. Corrosion would only be an issue maybe if putting E85 in a 1975 auto. Since flex fuel vehicles came out, the same lines, tanks, etc are used in both flex fuel and non flex fuel rated autos and pickups from the same OEM. It costs less logistically to have only one design of fuel lines and tanks and eliminates a potential problem if the wrong components were put in a flex fuel rated vehicle. I have hauled hundreds of loads to production auto plants for Ford and GM, and the same fuel system components go into both flex fuel and non flex fuel vehicle varieties.

Not sure why anyone would want to store E85 anyway. And if the vehicle is going to be stored away, then in that case run a couple of tanks of E10 or E0 before storing away. The only problems seem to occur with those that do not follow good fuel management practices.
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#4282952 - 12/23/16 06:47 AM Re: Engine wear and E85 [Re: Shata]
rooflessVW Offline


Registered: 12/24/11
Posts: 2840
Loc: North Carolina
Originally Posted By: Shata
That e85 is keeping the piston tops real clean. And someone earlier said something about gapless rings, that's not even possible lol they need to have gap either preset or file to fit.


Gapless rings are absolutely a real thing.
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#4283723 - 12/23/16 10:34 PM Re: Engine wear and E85 [Re: rooflessVW]
CT8 Online   content


Registered: 10/09/14
Posts: 9280
Loc: Idaho
Originally Posted By: rooflessVW
Originally Posted By: Shata
That e85 is keeping the piston tops real clean. And someone earlier said something about gapless rings, that's not even possible lol they need to have gap either preset or file to fit.


Gapless rings are absolutely a real thing.
Yes they are!

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#4286607 - 12/27/16 07:23 PM Re: Engine wear and E85 [Re: friendly_jacek]
Ohle_Manezzini Offline


Registered: 07/05/16
Posts: 666
Loc: Pindorama
The pistons are cleaner and the sump never makes sludge, with E85. The fuel pump has to be special though.

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#4286677 - 12/27/16 08:45 PM Re: Engine wear and E85 [Re: Ohle_Manezzini]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 22387
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
The sump never makes sludge with E85? I wouldn't want to test that proposition with excessively long OCIs on a low-SAPS oil. Would you? wink
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Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 coupe - Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40, Wix 57356
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#4287071 - 12/28/16 12:49 PM Re: Engine wear and E85 [Re: friendly_jacek]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 3165
Loc: Central Iowa
Not for anyone else's curiosity, and not my own. I would just use the same oil and OCI regimen I do now when I use various blends up to and including E85. I don't get all giddy about trying new things to satisfy other's curiosity.
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#4287194 - 12/28/16 04:16 PM Re: Engine wear and E85 [Re: Garak]
Ohle_Manezzini Offline


Registered: 07/05/16
Posts: 666
Loc: Pindorama
Originally Posted By: Garak
The sump never makes sludge with E85? I wouldn't want to test that proposition with excessively long OCIs on a low-SAPS oil. Would you? wink


Yep, Garak, I was talking about normal oci and mid-saps. What most people do to their cars, not extreme behaviors.

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#4287236 - 12/28/16 05:11 PM Re: Engine wear and E85 [Re: Ohle_Manezzini]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 22387
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
You said "never." We do have to realize that people abuse their vehicles and that OEMs occasionally try to pull a fast one with OCIs. Note that most OEMs do tend to push shorter OCIs when running E85, not longer.
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Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 coupe - Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40, Wix 57356
1984 F-150 4.9L six - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515

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#4287269 - 12/28/16 05:56 PM Re: Engine wear and E85 [Re: friendly_jacek]
Ohle_Manezzini Offline


Registered: 07/05/16
Posts: 666
Loc: Pindorama
That's just because the alcohol makes more induction droplets at cold operation hence wet blowby and consequent dilution until the oil gets 78C (about 150F?). And since OEM doesn't know if you are a short tripped, they say generally to go shorter oci. But I never see black coked sludge in Ethanol, E85 or LGP. If you find one with black sludge, please post, because I never saw this happening.

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#4287350 - 12/28/16 07:16 PM Re: Engine wear and E85 [Re: Ohle_Manezzini]
CT8 Online   content


Registered: 10/09/14
Posts: 9280
Loc: Idaho
I worked on forklifts there were some engines with 30,000 hours on them as forklifts engines have a fairly easy life if operated properly. Lpg, gasoline and diesel engines would actually be remarkably clean insides because they were serviced on a timely basis.The converted automotive engines are actually much better than the once used industrial engines.

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#4287824 - 12/29/16 10:07 AM Re: Engine wear and E85 [Re: Ohle_Manezzini]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 22387
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
I have none to post, of course. Even anecdotally, that would be hard to find given the rarity of E85 users. And, I'm well aware of what LPG can accomplish. I've amassed fleet totals in the millions of miles with LPG, with extended OCIs.
_________________________
Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 coupe - Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40, Wix 57356
1984 F-150 4.9L six - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515

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#4287966 - 12/29/16 01:46 PM Re: Engine wear and E85 [Re: friendly_jacek]
Ohle_Manezzini Offline


Registered: 07/05/16
Posts: 666
Loc: Pindorama
The problem is with cracking crude to make more gasoline, you got bad sludger fuligem gas.

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#4291899 - 01/03/17 08:49 AM Re: Engine wear and E85 [Re: friendly_jacek]
09_GXP Offline


Registered: 12/14/10
Posts: 417
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
Lots of good conversation here about E85. The one thing I haven't seen mentioned is that a key area that sees increased wear when running E85 in a port injection engine is the intake valves and seats. Back when E85 started becoming common a number of automakers had to introduce harder valve seats and nitrided intake valves. The nitirding process forms a hardened layer on the outside of the valve to resist wear.
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#4296783 - 01/08/17 12:29 PM Re: Engine wear and E85 [Re: friendly_jacek]
Jetronic Offline


Registered: 02/27/09
Posts: 3652
Loc: down in the park
so they don't lap the valves anymore?
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#4299766 - 01/11/17 03:53 PM Re: Engine wear and E85 [Re: friendly_jacek]
Ohle_Manezzini Offline


Registered: 07/05/16
Posts: 666
Loc: Pindorama
Stelite seat, hardened material doesn't recess as in old times. That came with lead phaseout.

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#4317466 - 01/31/17 09:10 AM Re: Engine wear and E85 [Re: Shata]
oldhp Offline


Registered: 06/28/12
Posts: 1395
Loc: Southern Illinois
Originally Posted By: Shata
I agree with you I mean this engine was driven real hard and always at high Rpms but in normal daily driven engine or one that see occasional spirited driving it's not normal to see smooth cylinders. On low wearing engines you will see cross hatching even on 200k gas engine, at least from photos of tear down engines I've seen.

That e85 is keeping the piston tops real clean. And someone earlier said something about gapless rings, that's not even possible lol they need to have gap either preset or file to fit.


Please look up gap less rings, they've been around for a long time.
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#4425591 - 06/08/17 12:31 AM Re: Engine wear and E85 [Re: friendly_jacek]
L_Sludger Offline


Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 3947
Loc: Ohio
Yeah that E85 did so well in that car that cylinder walls are optically pure mirrors now! How impeccably polished! Worthy of astronomer-grade instruments.
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#4527693 - 09/27/17 03:29 PM Re: Engine wear and E85 [Re: friendly_jacek]
delasueno Offline


Registered: 03/14/11
Posts: 31
Loc: MASCOUTAH, IL
I own a 2014 Chevy Silverado with the direct injected 5.3. I've ran a whole oil change interval strictly on E-85 and another on just regular gas using the exact same type of oil for each. Sent the samples to Blackstone...identical results as far as lab analysis goes...as far as my personal analysis goes, the oil sample after running e-85 for 6000 miles, the oil came out almost as gold as when it went in the engine. Using gas, the oil came out black. But as far as wear particles in the oil, again, samples were identical.


Edited by delasueno (09/27/17 03:30 PM)

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#4529242 - 09/29/17 10:06 AM Re: Engine wear and E85 [Re: friendly_jacek]
danielLD Offline


Registered: 08/12/17
Posts: 182
Loc: Chicago
delasueno, Blackstone doesn't give you 75% of the other tests a good UOA should have. So you're likely missing vital data.

E85 reduces wear, deposits and a whole lot of other things. I've done too many tests where we ditch gasohol for E85 and the wear and a lot of other variables disappear. It is not corrosive unlike gasoline.

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