New EPA coal regs = $180 billion

[LTVibe]

Somewhat related to my previous post:

'Green' mayor has change of heart when city goes black

Quote:
Ferndale’s mayor scrambled to get DTE to bring in diesel generators – fossil-fuel-burning, carbon-spewing generators! – to get the power back on. Apparently the health of the elderly gasping in their homes – three people died from the heat in Metro Detroit — is more important than saving the planet.

 

[LTVibe]

New EPA rule could lead to rolling blackouts in Texas

Quote:
...the industry's standard time frame for installing emission controls is several years, but the rule requires compliance in six months. So Luminant, a subsidiary of Energy Future Holdings, has said it may have to shut down some coal-fired power plants in East Texas.

 

[Shannow]

Grandstanding to sensationalise it so that they will get a grandfathering/deferral.

You can pull off some pretty big works in 6 months, 12 to 18 months near miracles.

 

[Tempest]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Grandstanding to sensationalise it so that they will get a grandfathering/deferral.

You can pull off some pretty big works in 6 months, 12 to 18 months near miracles.

At what cost? The 6 month schedule shows that the regulators are completely ignorant and incompetent in their field.

 

[Shannow]

Tempest, surely even you don't believe the 6 month thing as being gospel...

Environmental regs are discuseed at an industry level for the best part of half a decade before being legislated. Any competent business has their representative in on the discussion, and tracks where things might be.

In industry where business plans typically span 20-30 years, and assets utilised for half a century, this demonstrates an utter lack of competence in those caught short at the end.

Similar competence to opening the gates one morning and finding out that the local coal mine is "suddenly" empty.

 

[Tempest]

Quote:
Tempest, surely even you don't believe the 6 month thing as being gospel...

Then what is the point? Say 6 months and then get exemptions from buying politicians?

And this is not legislation.

The unelected and unaccountable regulators have no incentive to live in reality as what they pass doesn't affect them. It's not their money, and they will get paid regardless.
Where did this 6 month figure come from? Why not 12, 18 , 24? Is the world going to die in that time?

All this does is pass massive cost onto the public at a time of terrible economic conditions, necessarily causing energy prices to skyrocket, and putting coal plants on the edge of bankruptcy.

I am sure the power plants are up on what needs to be done, but someone is going to pay the price, and it isn't the evil CEO's at the top. It's the average citizen trying to keep the lights on.

 

[Shannow]

I still don't get your love to have square wave off frequency generation as the least cost norm, when it will cost those with computers and fridges dearly at the power point.

Who votes for 60 Hz and sine waves ?

Never ever seen a platform on that.

 

[Tempest]

Quote:
I still don't get your love to have square wave off frequency generation as the least cost norm, when it will cost those with computers and fridges dearly at the power point.

Having a regulator come in and set a time and amplitude for the peaks and valleys of the wave is not unreasonable because it promotes commerce. However, if someone keeps losing expensive equipment due to poor power, they are a lot less likely to use it. The power generators have a vested interest in providing good quality power to it's users.

This is especially true if they represent their product to be computer safe and then isn't. Would setup a heck of a class action law suit against the provider.

I bet you have to deal with regulations on a daily basis. How many pages are there? Providing timing and amplitude would take 1 page. I bet there are a LOT more pages than that.

I have to deal with ADA regulations at my job. The "handbook" that the Department of Justice provides is 257 pages.

 

[Shannow]

Tempest,
you used my state regs previously for automatic access to the grid as an example of over-regulation, so I'll leave it to you to determine which parts (like ride through frequency excursions, etyc. etc.) are over regged, and topping competition from new players.

 

[Tempest]

Are the operators of the these plants so incompetent that they have to rely on a government regulator, that has probably never run a coal power plant, to tell them what to do during low / high frequency events?

 

[Shannow]

Tempest, as a consumer of electricity, what are your expectations as to the reliability of supply, quality of the electricity that you get, and stability of the grid ?

How would you, as an individual negotiate those requirements with the grid, and the power generators in the absence of regulation ?

How could you maintain the burden of proof that your entire house was fried as a result of one rogue generator ?

Do you think that having competing power poles up and down your street (so that you can change provider after your house has been fried) is a market efficiency ?

Have you ever even heard of "Black Start", and why it needs to be avoided ?

I don't get your continued desire for a wild west electricity system.

 

[Tempest]

Quote:
How would you, as an individual negotiate those requirements with the grid, and the power generators in the absence of regulation ?

As I have stated before, the internet operates across the globe with no single entity controlling it. Here in the States, there is no government regulation of the processes or standards (currently). Yet I can talk to you across the globe in Australia. I didn't have to develop my own, written standard to make this happen. I pay my provider for their technical expertise. Just I do when I pay a mechanic, electrician, airplane pilot....

The free market has developed standards on these things (just like CD, MP3, video tape, computer cables, USB....) without the intervention of government regulators because they want things to work so people will buy them.

If energy providers were known to provide poor power, one could simply attach a monitoring device to the circuit. This would be little more than a glorified multimeter and would be cheap. More than likely a private organization would be formed and create standards. TomNJ's group and API are great examples.

Black start, never heard the term but it's always good to learn:
http://www.nationalgrid.com/uk/Electricity/Balancing/services/balanceserv/systemsecurity/blackstart/

Sounds bad. How many black starts have you guys had and how has government improved the situation?

 

[PandaBear]

Originally Posted By: Tempest
As I have stated before, the internet operates across the globe with no single entity controlling it. Here in the States, there is no government regulation of the processes or standards (currently).
The free market has developed standards on these things (just like CD, MP3, video tape, computer cables, USB....) without the intervention of government regulators because they want things to work so people will buy them.

If energy providers were known to provide poor power, one could simply attach a monitoring device to the circuit. This would be little more than a glorified multimeter and would be cheap. More than likely a private organization would be formed and create standards. TomNJ's group and API are great examples.


You have no freaking idea what you are talking about.

The Spec for Internet's protocol and interoperability is from IEEE's IETF. You don't get a standard ratified and people start building the same standard unless it is ratified. Sometimes people cheat but the customers and vendors have to take the risk of their investment being non standard and obsoleted.

The enforcement of what AT&T and Verizon can use a particular frequency for and whether they can merge with the others to get a monopoly is enforced by FCC. You don't want rogue companies setup interfering frequency that are auctioned off to wireless carrier and customers building non-certified equipment in their garage that knock the entire neighborhood off.

How will competitions help that? and how's government's involvement make it worse?

FCC may kill LightSquared to save GPS

 

[Tempest]

Quote:
The Spec for Internet's protocol and interoperability is from IEEE's IETF.

Is that a government organization?

And I never said anything about cell phones. Are the items I listed not convenient for your case?

Interference with GPS on civilian or military aircraft is a serious safety issue. Regulations to prevent crashes are not unreasonable.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Tempest
Are the items I listed not convenient for your case?


ROFLMAO...

that's quote of the century coming from Tempest.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: Tempest
Regulations to prevent crashes are not unreasonable.


But shouldnt the free market resolve that? The airline that crashes too much because they use a lousy GPS protocol can either solve the problem or go out of business. Done and done. no need to pay salaries for government to do this.

 

[Tempest]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: Tempest
Regulations to prevent crashes are not unreasonable.


But shouldnt the free market resolve that? The airline that crashes too much because they use a lousy GPS protocol can either solve the problem or go out of business. Done and done. no need to pay salaries for government to do this.

GPS is launched and maintained by the government.....

They may also mandate GPS on large aircraft. If they mandate something that doesn't work....

And Canada and other countries have privatized (or semi) their air traffic controllers and that seems to be working out quite well for them.

 

[Tempest]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Tempest
Are the items I listed not convenient for your case?


ROFLMAO...

that's quote of the century coming from Tempest.

Then you can surely point out flawed references that I have put up in the past?

 

[PandaBear]

Originally Posted By: Tempest
Quote:
The Spec for Internet's protocol and interoperability is from IEEE's IETF.

Is that a government organization?

And I never said anything about cell phones. Are the items I listed not convenient for your case?

Interference with GPS on civilian or military aircraft is a serious safety issue. Regulations to prevent crashes are not unreasonable.


You are changing subject. It is a single entity, and not government (or pseudo government because it was originally started by government, researched by government, and funded by government). So yes, there is regulation on that and yes, occasionally there are brand and company specific implementation that intentionally violated specs and their right to use the name of the standard removed, and their customers (businesses and government) cancelled orders.

You are providing items that are not complete, because they rely on certain already exist standard that are set by government or started by government and becomes international standard.

I'm pretty sure you've just picked the wrong examples, because anything communications and infrastructures related are guaranteed to have some form of regulation to prevent chaos (i.e. your cell phone causes GPS signal problem or the ambulance communication to fail, etc).

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: Tempest
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: Tempest
Regulations to prevent crashes are not unreasonable.


But shouldnt the free market resolve that? The airline that crashes too much because they use a lousy GPS protocol can either solve the problem or go out of business. Done and done. no need to pay salaries for government to do this.

GPS is launched and maintained by the government.....

They may also mandate GPS on large aircraft. If they mandate something that doesn't work....

And Canada and other countries have privatized (or semi) their air traffic controllers and that seems to be working out quite well for them.


But what Ive seen of your commentary, the government should have never done GPS. While it may promote commerce, the free market would do it better without bureaucracy. So they should not have created a (nonmilitary) GPS system, and the free market should have taken care of the better navigating airlines. Mandating GPS on airliners is just gov't intrusion, right?

If air traffic controllers are necessary, then privatizing them is as silly as anything Ive ever seen. What good does it do? You either need the number of billets or not. You either have public workers making some money and having some slight surity to their retirement at the public's cost, or, have private workers making lower wages with a willy-nilly retirement that is controlled by some company that is making profit, so the burdened rate is actually more or less the same, but when the company screws up its pension system, those folks fall on the government dole anyway.

For spots where there is a justifiable number of billets, I just dont see how it makes sense to privatize. It just creates a private profit where there once was non-profit employment.