Preliminary Report: 10W30 in 5.4L 3V Modular

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Recently began the experiment to see the effects of 10W30 in an '05 5.4L Ford 3V modular V8 with VCT.

Note that I am not doing this because I think it will be "better" for the engine. I am looking for a single oil that will work in my "fleet" of two farm tractors, gas pickup, diesel pickup, car and various small engines and Motorcraft Super Duty 10W30 CJ4/SM diesel oil is vying with Rotella T5 10W30 for that honor. I am willing to make minor compromises in relatively unimportant areas to make this happen. The specs are pretty close for each but maybe you read my post in the diesel forum, so I won't bore you with more on that.

I have been datalogging VCT operation on RP 5W20 over 10K miles as well as oil pressure and oil temp.

I have recorded the following averages (only a few hundred miles on the 10W30):

Hot Oil Pressure:

Idle In Gear-
26 psi @ 190F EOT w/ new 5W20 RP
25 psi @ 188F EOT w/ 10K 5W20 RP
33 psi @ 189F EOT w/ new 10W30 MC

Oil Pressure @ 60 MPH (1800rpm)-
63 psi @ 192F EOT w/new 5W20 RP
59 psi @ 198F EOT w/10K 5W20 RP
67 psi @ 189F EOT w/new 10W30 RP

Cold Oil Pressure, 10W30-
(have misplaced the log sheet for cold starts on 5W20... Gad Zukes)

75 psi @ 49F EOT @ cold start, fast idle
(recall around 70 psi for new 5W20)
70 psi @ 59F EOT @ idle in gear
73 psi @ 100F EOT @ 60 mph
70 psi @ 137F EOT @ 60 mph
45 psi @ 165F EOT @ idle in gear

VCT Operation

Nominal. Thus far, VCT ops with 10W30 seems to be identical to 5W20. The data charts look nearly identical. That surprises me a little but is what it is. I have a problem in that I can only record about 5 minutes of data at a time on my programmer, so it's bit difficult to get "snapshots" in all situations. The only differences I see so far are at the transitions and I have to look REALLY close to see it. Full throttle to a moderately fast release of the throttle into coast, the VCT seems to react a little faster. Could be that I can't make the transition exactly the same as I did before, even though I practiced until I thought I was consistent, but the 10W30 seems a little faster in the transition by a fraction. Probably a "macht nichts" deal anyway.

I'll keep monitoring and pass along what I observe.
 
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hmmm...higher pressure means more protection I guess? Higher rate of oil flow and/or more parasitic losses?
 
Originally Posted By: Burt
hmmm...higher pressure means more protection I guess? Higher rate of oil flow and/or more parasitic losses?
It is all a compromise!!!
 
Originally Posted By: Burt
hmmm...higher pressure means more protection I guess? Higher rate of oil flow and/or more parasitic losses?


Typically flow and pressure are inversely related.

Quote:
I'll keep monitoring and pass along what I observe.


Jim, do you monitor fuel economy? I used to, but I never noticed a difference from engine oil viscosity changes. I would like to switch our "fleet" over to a dual rated 10w30 as well, but I don't want to chance a warranty issue with the '08 Honda.
 
Originally Posted By: Burt
hmmm...higher pressure means more protection I guess?


no, it doesn't.

As long as the pressure is adequate to provide lubrication, there are no upsides to higher oil pressure than necessary--only downsides (increased seal wear, increased strain on the oil pump, increased friction of the overall system). "High enough" will be specified by the mfg.

In Jim's case, I doubt the difference is enough to worry about. This seems to be a case of trading a small amount of performance for the convenience of having one oil on hand. If I had multiple vehicles, that's a trade off I'd probably consider as well.
 
Originally Posted By: Rob_Roy
Originally Posted By: Burt
hmmm...higher pressure means more protection I guess? Higher rate of oil flow and/or more parasitic losses?


Typically flow and pressure are inversely related.

Quote:
I'll keep monitoring and pass along what I observe.


Jim, do you monitor fuel economy? I used to, but I never noticed a difference from engine oil viscosity changes. I would like to switch our "fleet" over to a dual rated 10w30 as well, but I don't want to chance a warranty issue with the '08 Honda.



^your engine will not blow up from a 10w30 and Honda will never know you had it in there. What warranty issues?
 
Oil temps are a big issue in this, JOD, and that's why my figures read X pressure @ y EOT (Engine oil temp). You may mean, is oil temp higher overall due to the increased viscosity? Probably so, but that's not my major concern and it wouldn't be by much, IMO. I though about it but can't get an exact enough test situation (stone knives and bearskins kinda testing here, relatively speaking) to see how much different it would be.

As to fuel economy, I monitor it closely. Too soon to tell anything. Given that this truck is almost never short hopped (it's driven long enough to get fully warmed up, the oil I mean), a loss of FE from the heavier oil will be less an issue than it might be with a short-hopped rig. Also, it's seldom parked outside in winter.

For you Honda owners, this same viscosity, and possibly this same oil, will be going into a 2000 Accord V6, which was spec'ed for 5W30 and has run that since day one. It also has VCT. It's driven the same way as the truck... few short hops, and garage kept, so the winter rating won't be much of an issue.

I'd prefer a 5W30 HDEO but they are few and far between and expensive. If I could find some at $3-4/qt, like I can with 10W30 HDEO, I'd be on it like stink on doo-doo.
 
I am not trying to hijack Jim's thread, but regarding the 10w30 in the Honda...I simply meant that the vehicle is still under warranty and in the event of an engine warranty claim, it would be nice to have an engine oil of the proper viscosity in the sump. It wouldn't take a rocket scientist to do a UOA and see that a 10w30 HDEO is outside the expected viscosity range for an SAE 20. With that said, I agree that the heavier oil wouldn't hurt anything, but for the sake of a few dollars I will keep running the recommended viscosity in this car.

-Rob
 
yeah, I was wondering if temps overall were higher--or rather, high enough to merit concern for engine cooling and oil breakdown (since I'm sure the oil temps will be higher, I was just wondering "how much higher").

I certainly understand the limitations of the test, since you're limited to the position of the sensors from which you're pulling the data, and you can only log so much data.

I guess my concern would be a significant jump in hths could potentially have the oil running pretty hot due to the increased pressure and friction. What is the hths of the MC10W30, anyway?
 
Well, having been monitoring oil temps on this truck for a coupla years over my local test track (rural roads in farm country), I can safely state that I'm seeing pretty normal oil temps for the ambient temperature.

I don't have the HTHS for the MC (or the Rotella for that matter) but I presume it to be within the customary range for a 10W30 HDEO 3.5, or thereabouts.

My limitations are mostly in the area of test condition repeatability... the exact ambient temp, engine load etc. My margin for error is necessarily wider than if I was in a dyno lab but it's really close enough for my purposes. All my results so far are certainly within my margin for error. The UOA in another 7500 miles and 15 months or so will tell another part of the story.
 
Originally Posted By: RISUPERCREWMAN
Using an oil other than Motorcraft/Ford recommended 5w~20 viscosity will give you problems with the cam phasers/vtc's! That's a given!


Funny some government entities use 15W40 Fleet Oil in all vehicles including 5.4L 3V Superduties without issue. Ford also authorizes heavier oil in 5.4L 3V with noisy valvetrains in TSB.
 
Originally Posted By: RISUPERCREWMAN
Using an oil other than Motorcraft/Ford recommended 5w~20 viscosity will give you problems with the cam phasers/vtc's! That's a given!


False, proven by Oasis special service message 21217.
 
Originally Posted By: RISUPERCREWMAN
Using an oil other than Motorcraft/Ford recommended 5w~20 viscosity will give you problems with the cam phasers/vtc's! That's a given!


What exactly?

You seem to be missing the point. I'm doing this as an experiment to see what happens with the VCT using a heavier oil because nobody can tell me. I can read and monitor cam position, oil temp, oil pressure, and more, and I see no difference in VCT operation at all at this point. It's early days yet, so something might turn up, but right now the data logging of cam position shows virtually no difference in operation over a series of controlled tests. The oil pressure is not obscenely high either. I might see more trouble with excessively high oil pressure next winter, given the 10W vs 5W winter grade, but that's part of what this experiment is about.

I want to repeat this, so I'll say it loud:

I'M NOT DOING THIS BECAUSE I THINK 5W20 IS BAD OR THE WRONG OIL OR THAT I THINK 10W30 IS GOING TO BE "BETTER" OR EVEN OPTIMAL IN EVERY WAY, I'M DOING IT TO SIMPLIFY MY OIL LOGISITICS.

The TSB mentioned above is what opened the door in my mind to give this a shot.
 
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Hi Jim,

Interesting experiment but of course you're just comparing two oils and we don't know the exact HTHS vis of either.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought a typical dino 10W-30 HDEO had a HTHS vis of about 3.2cP?

One thing I find curious is that you have very little OP difference at 1,800 rpm between the RP and the 10W-30 but a 25% difference on idle at the same oil temps?

BTW what is the by-pass OP level on your oil pump?

But the main purpose of the experiment was to establish that there was no issue in running a grade heavier than spec' oil in the Ford Modular V8 engine or the Honda with no extreme cold start-ups and I think you've done that (not that I would have expected that you couldn't).

In non temperature extremes (both ambient an oil temp') and in light to moderate duty applications, one can run a grade lighter or heavier than spec' without issue. I don't know of an application where this is not the case.
 
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Originally Posted By: RISUPERCREWMAN
Using an oil other than Motorcraft/Ford recommended 5w~20 viscosity will give you problems with the cam phasers/vtc's! That's a given!


False, proven by Oasis special service message 21217.


Yep, there's nothing wrong with only wanting to use 5w20, but thinking 30wt will harm the engine in any way is just wrong.

Doesn't that TSB say to use 10w40 IIRC? I might even use 5w30 in my brother's 5.4 F150 now since it's out of warranty. It consumes some oil on 5w20 and has a slight cam phaser noise. I figure it's worth a try. Plus, we live in Phoenix, climate isn't as much of a factor here.
 
Thanks Ed. I had recalled 3.5cP from memory in an earlier post but thanks for confirming. I was too lazy to look it up at the time.

Caterham: Can't explain the oil pressure issues you note and I don't have a confirmed bypass pressure for the engine. It's not in the factory manual, nor in any of the modular buildup manuals I have. Unconfirmed, it's in the high-80 psi range. Heck, the manual lists 75 psi @ 2000 with a warmed up engine as the normal OP spec, so it has to be well above that, eh? (threw in a little North-o-the -Border lingo to make you feel at home). On some very cold starts with 5W20, I've seen over 80 psi a couple of times when the engine flared for cat warmup.

In any case, I'm still averaging results on the new oil. That number is the product of just a couple of samples, so we'll see what, if anything, changes.

One other thing I note is that that raspy "timing chain" kinda noise that's kinda normal for modulars is gone. Mine was much quieter than some others I've heard, but the 10W30 made a notable change even for my under 30K mile engine.
 
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