There's lots of hydrogen on Jupiter...
German government: 1 million electric cars by 2020
- Thread starter NJC
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AH, but we have already concluded it is hard to transport even if already liquified.
JHZR2
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Which is why the DOE's decision a few years ago for onboard reforming wa so idiotic. Given our move to ultra-low sulfur fuels, reformation of liquid fuels to H2 is relatively easy, and advanced designs can start quickly. A FC baseload with a decent Li-ion battery is doable for efficient transport. Since FCs and integrated FC/reformer systems are not limited by Carnot, what limited liquid fuels we have go much further, and we maintain an infrastructure of a means of energy storage far more dense than any battery will ever be.
Rube Goldberg would be proud.
Granted my knowledge on the subject is limited but why couldn't an electric car have two batteries. Be able to run off of one while the other an auxiliary is self charging itself by a generator/alternator. One would obviously have to be charged from the factory but behond that neither one should require being plugged again.
magnets.
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Originally Posted By: NJC
1 million electric cars by 2020
It's not going to happen.
1 million electric cars by 2020
It's not going to happen.
Originally Posted By: moribundman
It's not going to happen.
That was my point. We had wild predictions with auto fuel cells arriving en masse 5yrs ago ... 2020 is far enough away that most will have forgotten.
It's not going to happen.
That was my point. We had wild predictions with auto fuel cells arriving en masse 5yrs ago ... 2020 is far enough away that most will have forgotten.
In Germany a Liter of beer costs less than a Liter of Gasoline. Europe also has a lot of nuclear power plants and electric public transportation. Their cities have been created for pedestrians and public transportation for a long time. the United States cities were created around the automobile.
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Originally Posted By: Loobed
In Germany a Liter of beer costs less than a Liter of Gasoline. Europe also has a lot of nuclear power plants and electric public transportation. Their cities have been created for pedestrians and public transportation for a long time. the United States cities were created around the automobile.
One liter brand name beer costs in Germany about 2 Euro (~$2.90). One liter regular gas is about $1.34 right now.
Public transportation is okay in big cities. In rural areas and smaller towns public transportation is forgettable.
All German nuclear reactors are scheduled to be shut down by 2020.
In Germany a Liter of beer costs less than a Liter of Gasoline. Europe also has a lot of nuclear power plants and electric public transportation. Their cities have been created for pedestrians and public transportation for a long time. the United States cities were created around the automobile.
One liter brand name beer costs in Germany about 2 Euro (~$2.90). One liter regular gas is about $1.34 right now.
Public transportation is okay in big cities. In rural areas and smaller towns public transportation is forgettable.
All German nuclear reactors are scheduled to be shut down by 2020.
JHZR2
Staff member
Originally Posted By: Shannow
JHZR2,
have you seen much on storing hydrogen in (I think either ammonia or urea)?
New Scientist a few weeks ago (I think) had an article on it. Pretty easy to crack the hydrogen off the nitrogen, rather than pulling apart water.
Ammonia would be a good fuel, as it is pretty hydrogen dense, and reforms endothermically with low-level heat. There are benefits to ammonia for a mobility fuel, if you transport it as ammonia.
Methane is good, as it represents four H2 molecules - two H2 on the methane itself, one as you go from C to CO, and one as you perform a water-gas shift to go from CO to CO2. Steam reforming is extremely mature for methane, but you then hit the question of what do we want our NG for, showers and fertilizer or mobility... I suppose that one can ask the same question with ammonia, since Im sure the Hydrogen is sourced from methane there too.
Overall, great stuff, but there is a general scare of ammonia...
JHZR2,
have you seen much on storing hydrogen in (I think either ammonia or urea)?
New Scientist a few weeks ago (I think) had an article on it. Pretty easy to crack the hydrogen off the nitrogen, rather than pulling apart water.
Ammonia would be a good fuel, as it is pretty hydrogen dense, and reforms endothermically with low-level heat. There are benefits to ammonia for a mobility fuel, if you transport it as ammonia.
Methane is good, as it represents four H2 molecules - two H2 on the methane itself, one as you go from C to CO, and one as you perform a water-gas shift to go from CO to CO2. Steam reforming is extremely mature for methane, but you then hit the question of what do we want our NG for, showers and fertilizer or mobility... I suppose that one can ask the same question with ammonia, since Im sure the Hydrogen is sourced from methane there too.
Overall, great stuff, but there is a general scare of ammonia...
Here's some interesting news, happening here in Vancouver.
Quote:
A car that automaker Nissan hopes will revolutionize urban commuting made its Canadian debut in Vancouver Monday.
The Nissan Leaf is being touted as the first zero-emissions vehicle powered entirely by electricity to be mass-produced by a major car manufacturer.
and
Quote:
Nissan said the car will have a range of about 160 kilometers and a top speed approaching 140 km/h.
A re-charge requires plugging the vehicle into a regular 120-volt circuit for 16 hours, or connecting to a 220-volt outlet – the kind used for electric stoves and dryers – for eight hours.
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2009/12/14/bc-nissan-leaf-electric-car.html
Fuel cells have far better power density than lithium ion ... and better range - which is incidentally why Daimler is focusing on the fuel cell auto. BUT - the Li-ion battery seems to be a far better solution. Especially considering the electric infrastructure is present and well-established. More here on Li-Ion vs fuel cells from Panasonic:
www.panasonic.com/industrial/.../Panasonic_FuelCellOverview.pdf
Quote:
A car that automaker Nissan hopes will revolutionize urban commuting made its Canadian debut in Vancouver Monday.
The Nissan Leaf is being touted as the first zero-emissions vehicle powered entirely by electricity to be mass-produced by a major car manufacturer.
and
Quote:
Nissan said the car will have a range of about 160 kilometers and a top speed approaching 140 km/h.
A re-charge requires plugging the vehicle into a regular 120-volt circuit for 16 hours, or connecting to a 220-volt outlet – the kind used for electric stoves and dryers – for eight hours.
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2009/12/14/bc-nissan-leaf-electric-car.html
Fuel cells have far better power density than lithium ion ... and better range - which is incidentally why Daimler is focusing on the fuel cell auto. BUT - the Li-ion battery seems to be a far better solution. Especially considering the electric infrastructure is present and well-established. More here on Li-Ion vs fuel cells from Panasonic:
www.panasonic.com/industrial/.../Panasonic_FuelCellOverview.pdf
Rationalism is badly misused to describe letting infrastructure fall apart. The stark truth is, we either find different sources of energy or cut way back on its use. Once we know where the energy is coming from, we can make it work.
I think the Germans are being just slightly optimistic.
JHZR2
Staff member
Again, large-format energy storage NOT from the Pacific rim is a national security issue. Autos are the best way to commoditize an item with cost like this. Thus the push.
From the commoditization and safe design of energy storage components will come all sorts of benefits.
From the commoditization and safe design of energy storage components will come all sorts of benefits.
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