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PAO vs. ESTER oils? which one is better? #145734
07/23/05 06:27 AM
07/23/05 06:27 AM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 207
Allentown, PA
brianpavlovic Offline OP
brianpavlovic  Offline OP
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 207
Allentown, PA
Can someone please clear this up for me! Which one is better? A PAO oil or an Ester based oil?

Re: PAO vs. ESTER oils? which one is better? #145735
07/23/05 06:55 AM
07/23/05 06:55 AM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 3,327
Millbrae, CA
bruce381 Offline
bruce381  Offline
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 3,327
Millbrae, CA
depends, they both have drawbacks and are used in combination to balance out the best.

.........................PAO....ESTER
Additive solubility......bad....good
VI.......................good...medium
Hydrolitic stability.....good...bad
low/high vis grades......good...medium
cost.....................low....high

other diferences but you get the idea.
bruce

[ July 23, 2005, 11:08 PM: Message edited by: bruce381 ]

Re: PAO vs. ESTER oils? which one is better? #145736
07/23/05 07:14 AM
07/23/05 07:14 AM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 310
cary, IL
forcedtalon Offline
forcedtalon  Offline
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 310
cary, IL
good question I also would like to know more

Re: PAO vs. ESTER oils? which one is better? #145737
07/23/05 07:23 AM
07/23/05 07:23 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,910
Vista, CA
LarryL Offline
LarryL  Offline
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,910
Vista, CA
...better for what?

Re: PAO vs. ESTER oils? which one is better? #145738
07/23/05 07:52 AM
07/23/05 07:52 AM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 13,131
By Detroit
TallPaul Offline
TallPaul  Offline
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 13,131
By Detroit
quote:
.........................PAO....ESTER
VI.......................good...medium
Hydrolitic stability.....good...bad
low/high vis grades......good...medium

I thought ester had a higher viscosity index that PAO.

I think hydrolitic stability relates to the type of ester and may not be an issue with that used in motor oil.

Not sure what "low/high vis grades" means.

Re: PAO vs. ESTER oils? which one is better? #145739
07/23/05 09:12 AM
07/23/05 09:12 AM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,233
Wisconsin
Blue99 Offline
Blue99  Offline
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,233
Wisconsin
quote:
.........................PAO....ESTER
Additive solubility......bad....good
VI.......................good...medium
Hydrolitic stability.....good...bad
low/high vis grades......good...medium
cost.....................low....high

Bruce381 is providing us with insights based on his many years as a professional working with lubricant/oil formulations.

I think he is trying to provide a "25 words or less" answer to a complicated question.

I just re-read the "About Esters" page at the Hatco site and noted the Hatco comment that one drawback with esters is the attraction for water.

As far as VI index, the Cognis site lists multiple ester products in the 130-140 index range, which is same as PAO to my knowledge.

As Bruce indicates, PAO's get the nod based on available viscosity grades, as PAO's typically run 4-8-10-25-40 cSt and up to 150 cSt.

Re: PAO vs. ESTER oils? which one is better? #145740
07/23/05 12:14 PM
07/23/05 12:14 PM
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 2,387
Chicago area
mechtech Offline
mechtech  Offline
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 2,387
Chicago area
I never liked Esther...
Oh wait, I'm thinking of Sanford and Son!

Re: PAO vs. ESTER oils? which one is better? #145741
07/23/05 03:59 PM
07/23/05 03:59 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 13,131
By Detroit
TallPaul Offline
TallPaul  Offline
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 13,131
By Detroit
quote:
Originally posted by Blue99:
Bruce381 is providing us with insights based on his many years as a professional working with lubricant/oil formulations.

[Duh!] Of course. I should have viewed his profile. Anyway, thanks for elaborating on his points. Then Redline (for example) has treated their oil somehow to eliminate the water attraction issue, right?

Re: PAO vs. ESTER oils? which one is better? #145742
07/23/05 05:05 PM
07/23/05 05:05 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 5,785
Dixie
TooSlick Offline
TooSlick  Offline
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 5,785
Dixie
The blended PAO/Ester basestocks have the best overall physical/chemical properties - and the take well to additive packages that are developed for conventional lubricants.

Note that the "Group III" synthetics simply replace the PAO portion of the basestock blend with the less expensive Group III, hydroisomerized oil. So these are more accurately called Group III/Ester blended base stocks.

Pure ester based synthetics more most useful to make synthetic two stroke lubricants, since the esters burn and exhaust even more cleanly than PAO's and the esters provide lubricity in the gas/oil mixtures....

Before the Redline guys have a cow, I should mention their excellent product. [Smile] It would be accurate to think of RL as a Polyol-ester/PAO product; containing > 50% PE (RL is very coy as to how much PE is in the basestock blend). The strong point of RL is high temp performance - particularly in a true racing application. However the RL lubes don't provide the cold temp performance, (or extended drain capability) of a very high TBN, PAO based lube like Amsoil or the GC/0w-30 or Mobil 1....

Tooslick

Re: PAO vs. ESTER oils? which one is better? #145743
07/23/05 11:29 PM
07/23/05 11:29 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 30,959
NJ
buster Offline
buster  Offline
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 30,959
NJ
quote:
However the RL lubes don't provide the cold temp performance, (or extended drain capability) of a very high TBN, PAO based lube like Amsoil or the GC/0w-30 or Mobil 1....

The percentage of POE RL uses is unknown, but speculated to be 65% or greater. Cost is the main issue why most don't more POE in their oils.

Redline claims 12-18k mile drains with their oils. Most RL oils show a TBN of 10. According to Terry, it's not always the higher TBN that counts, but the reserve it has left over "X" amount of miles. Terry has stated that even at 0, RL has alot of acid fighting reserve left. I wouldn't feel comfortable with having a TBN of 0, but I'm sure it's possible.

Re: PAO vs. ESTER oils? which one is better? #145744
07/24/05 12:41 AM
07/24/05 12:41 AM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 112
Long Island
HardCharger Offline
HardCharger  Offline
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 112
Long Island
quote:
Originally posted by TooSlick:
The blended PAO/Ester basestocks have the best overall physical/chemical properties - and the take well to additive packages that are developed for conventional lubricants.

Note that the "Group III" synthetics simply replace the PAO portion of the basestock blend with the less expensive Group III, hydroisomerized oil. So these are more accurately called Group III/Ester blended base stocks.

Pure ester based synthetics more most useful to make synthetic two stroke lubricants, since the esters burn and exhaust even more cleanly than PAO's and the esters provide lubricity in the gas/oil mixtures....

Before the Redline guys have a cow, I should mention their excellent product. [Smile] It would be accurate to think of RL as a Polyol-ester/PAO product; containing > 50% PE (RL is very coy as to how much PE is in the basestock blend). The strong point of RL is high temp performance - particularly in a true racing application. However the RL lubes don't provide the cold temp performance, (or extended drain capability) of a very high TBN, PAO based lube like Amsoil or the GC/0w-30 or Mobil 1....

Tooslick

I don't know. 10-18,000 mile OCI's seem pretty darn "extended drain", wouldn't you say. I don't see anyone even attempting these OCI's w/ GC or especially M1 0W-30.

Re: PAO vs. ESTER oils? which one is better? #145745
07/24/05 12:54 AM
07/24/05 12:54 AM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 310
cary, IL
forcedtalon Offline
forcedtalon  Offline
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 310
cary, IL
UOA is the only way to find out the condition of the oil most people just change it not knowing the conditions. No one OCI is right for everyone. It all depends on the aplication and driving habits. Someday we will have 50k OCI with how oil tech is going it just keeps gettting better.

Re: PAO vs. ESTER oils? which one is better? #145746
07/24/05 01:03 AM
07/24/05 01:03 AM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,233
Wisconsin
Blue99 Offline
Blue99  Offline
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,233
Wisconsin
quote:
I don't know. 10-18,000 mile OCI's seem pretty darn "extended drain", wouldn't you say. I don't see anyone even attempting these OCI's w/ GC or especially M1 0W-30.
Ahh, I believe this would be a Redline guy having a cow! [Big Grin]

Re: PAO vs. ESTER oils? which one is better? #145747
07/24/05 01:19 AM
07/24/05 01:19 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,073
moutain country
boxcartommie22 Offline
boxcartommie22  Offline
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,073
moutain country
dave at red line the tbn of their oils is 7

Re: PAO vs. ESTER oils? which one is better? #145748
07/24/05 02:16 AM
07/24/05 02:16 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 8,936
SC
G-MAN Offline
G-MAN  Offline
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 8,936
SC
quote:
Originally posted by boxcartommie22:
dave at red line the tbn of their oils is 7

[LOL!]

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