Recent Topics
Sainz to McLaren
by Brad_C
08/16/18 08:24 AM
5.4 3V Ford Triton Oil/carbon layer at spark plug
by tryamu
08/16/18 07:12 AM
Estimate on new porch (composite) - Thoughts?
by xBa380
08/16/18 06:46 AM
Valvoline Advanced Synthetic D1G2/5w30, 6,087MI, 09 Saturn
by smithph
08/16/18 06:45 AM
Automotive paint?
by Hemispheres
08/16/18 06:13 AM
I learned something new (historic info)!
by RyanY
08/16/18 05:46 AM
2015 Accord CVT Filter Change
by Stucker21trt
08/16/18 02:35 AM
Out, M1 0w-40, In PP 10w-30. Quiet
by wrcsixeight
08/16/18 01:39 AM
Bday today my doberman dies too
by Marco620
08/16/18 01:08 AM
This summers common ac repairs.
by Chris142
08/15/18 10:48 PM
Food for cats with kidney disease.
by montero1
08/15/18 09:23 PM
Land pride 5615 rotary cutter gearbox oil?
by Jmoney7269
08/15/18 09:20 PM
Are these factory Ford lug nuts pure garbage?
by Blaze
08/15/18 09:15 PM
Amsoil Signature vs OE?
by buck91
08/15/18 09:02 PM
Chev Trailblazer thermostat replacement
by BrianF
08/15/18 07:37 PM
Stabil Ethanol treatment
by mjk
08/15/18 07:01 PM
Windows Update Strategy?
by MONKEYMAN
08/15/18 06:49 PM
Motorcraft PCMO reformulation
by LotI
08/15/18 06:45 PM
Front rotor recomendations - 1993 F-150 4x4
by BrocLuno
08/15/18 06:07 PM
Premium Gas Prices
by Zee09
08/15/18 05:47 PM
Newest Members
heyjobe, RockerSwitches, Jmoney7269, Charly_gt, tryamu
65722 Registered Users
Who's Online
69 registered (69Torino, ARCOgraphite, Al, 2015_PSD, Andy636, Aero540T, 9 invisible), 1469 Guests and 32 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
65722 Members
67 Forums
288794 Topics
4816793 Posts

Max Online: 3590 @ 01/24/17 08:07 PM
Donate to BITOG
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 >
Topic Options
#145734 - 07/23/05 07:27 AM PAO vs. ESTER oils? which one is better?
brianpavlovic Offline


Registered: 04/26/05
Posts: 207
Loc: Allentown, PA
Can someone please clear this up for me! Which one is better? A PAO oil or an Ester based oil?

Top
#145735 - 07/23/05 07:55 AM Re: PAO vs. ESTER oils? which one is better?
bruce381 Offline


Registered: 06/23/05
Posts: 3327
Loc: Millbrae, CA
depends, they both have drawbacks and are used in combination to balance out the best.

.........................PAO....ESTER
Additive solubility......bad....good
VI.......................good...medium
Hydrolitic stability.....good...bad
low/high vis grades......good...medium
cost.....................low....high

other diferences but you get the idea.
bruce

[ July 23, 2005, 11:08 PM: Message edited by: bruce381 ]

Top
#145736 - 07/23/05 08:14 AM Re: PAO vs. ESTER oils? which one is better?
forcedtalon Offline


Registered: 12/24/03
Posts: 310
Loc: cary, IL
good question I also would like to know more

Top
#145737 - 07/23/05 08:23 AM Re: PAO vs. ESTER oils? which one is better?
LarryL Offline


Registered: 09/16/04
Posts: 1910
Loc: Vista, CA
...better for what?

Top
#145738 - 07/23/05 08:52 AM Re: PAO vs. ESTER oils? which one is better?
TallPaul Offline


Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 13127
Loc: By Detroit
quote:
.........................PAO....ESTER
VI.......................good...medium
Hydrolitic stability.....good...bad
low/high vis grades......good...medium

I thought ester had a higher viscosity index that PAO.

I think hydrolitic stability relates to the type of ester and may not be an issue with that used in motor oil.

Not sure what "low/high vis grades" means.

Top
#145739 - 07/23/05 10:12 AM Re: PAO vs. ESTER oils? which one is better?
Blue99 Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 2233
Loc: Wisconsin
quote:
.........................PAO....ESTER
Additive solubility......bad....good
VI.......................good...medium
Hydrolitic stability.....good...bad
low/high vis grades......good...medium
cost.....................low....high

Bruce381 is providing us with insights based on his many years as a professional working with lubricant/oil formulations.

I think he is trying to provide a "25 words or less" answer to a complicated question.

I just re-read the "About Esters" page at the Hatco site and noted the Hatco comment that one drawback with esters is the attraction for water.

As far as VI index, the Cognis site lists multiple ester products in the 130-140 index range, which is same as PAO to my knowledge.

As Bruce indicates, PAO's get the nod based on available viscosity grades, as PAO's typically run 4-8-10-25-40 cSt and up to 150 cSt.

Top
#145740 - 07/23/05 01:14 PM Re: PAO vs. ESTER oils? which one is better?
mechtech Offline


Registered: 08/11/04
Posts: 2387
Loc: Chicago area
I never liked Esther...
Oh wait, I'm thinking of Sanford and Son!

Top
#145741 - 07/23/05 04:59 PM Re: PAO vs. ESTER oils? which one is better?
TallPaul Offline


Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 13127
Loc: By Detroit
quote:
Originally posted by Blue99:
Bruce381 is providing us with insights based on his many years as a professional working with lubricant/oil formulations.

[Duh!] Of course. I should have viewed his profile. Anyway, thanks for elaborating on his points. Then Redline (for example) has treated their oil somehow to eliminate the water attraction issue, right?

Top
#145742 - 07/23/05 06:05 PM Re: PAO vs. ESTER oils? which one is better?
TooSlick Offline


Registered: 08/02/02
Posts: 5785
Loc: Dixie
The blended PAO/Ester basestocks have the best overall physical/chemical properties - and the take well to additive packages that are developed for conventional lubricants.

Note that the "Group III" synthetics simply replace the PAO portion of the basestock blend with the less expensive Group III, hydroisomerized oil. So these are more accurately called Group III/Ester blended base stocks.

Pure ester based synthetics more most useful to make synthetic two stroke lubricants, since the esters burn and exhaust even more cleanly than PAO's and the esters provide lubricity in the gas/oil mixtures....

Before the Redline guys have a cow, I should mention their excellent product. [Smile] It would be accurate to think of RL as a Polyol-ester/PAO product; containing > 50% PE (RL is very coy as to how much PE is in the basestock blend). The strong point of RL is high temp performance - particularly in a true racing application. However the RL lubes don't provide the cold temp performance, (or extended drain capability) of a very high TBN, PAO based lube like Amsoil or the GC/0w-30 or Mobil 1....

Tooslick

Top
#145743 - 07/24/05 12:29 AM Re: PAO vs. ESTER oils? which one is better?
buster Offline


Registered: 11/16/02
Posts: 30579
Loc: NJ
quote:
However the RL lubes don't provide the cold temp performance, (or extended drain capability) of a very high TBN, PAO based lube like Amsoil or the GC/0w-30 or Mobil 1....

The percentage of POE RL uses is unknown, but speculated to be 65% or greater. Cost is the main issue why most don't more POE in their oils.

Redline claims 12-18k mile drains with their oils. Most RL oils show a TBN of 10. According to Terry, it's not always the higher TBN that counts, but the reserve it has left over "X" amount of miles. Terry has stated that even at 0, RL has alot of acid fighting reserve left. I wouldn't feel comfortable with having a TBN of 0, but I'm sure it's possible.

Top
#145744 - 07/24/05 01:41 AM Re: PAO vs. ESTER oils? which one is better?
HardCharger Offline


Registered: 05/21/05
Posts: 112
Loc: Long Island
quote:
Originally posted by TooSlick:
The blended PAO/Ester basestocks have the best overall physical/chemical properties - and the take well to additive packages that are developed for conventional lubricants.

Note that the "Group III" synthetics simply replace the PAO portion of the basestock blend with the less expensive Group III, hydroisomerized oil. So these are more accurately called Group III/Ester blended base stocks.

Pure ester based synthetics more most useful to make synthetic two stroke lubricants, since the esters burn and exhaust even more cleanly than PAO's and the esters provide lubricity in the gas/oil mixtures....

Before the Redline guys have a cow, I should mention their excellent product. [Smile] It would be accurate to think of RL as a Polyol-ester/PAO product; containing > 50% PE (RL is very coy as to how much PE is in the basestock blend). The strong point of RL is high temp performance - particularly in a true racing application. However the RL lubes don't provide the cold temp performance, (or extended drain capability) of a very high TBN, PAO based lube like Amsoil or the GC/0w-30 or Mobil 1....

Tooslick

I don't know. 10-18,000 mile OCI's seem pretty darn "extended drain", wouldn't you say. I don't see anyone even attempting these OCI's w/ GC or especially M1 0W-30.

Top
#145745 - 07/24/05 01:54 AM Re: PAO vs. ESTER oils? which one is better?
forcedtalon Offline


Registered: 12/24/03
Posts: 310
Loc: cary, IL
UOA is the only way to find out the condition of the oil most people just change it not knowing the conditions. No one OCI is right for everyone. It all depends on the aplication and driving habits. Someday we will have 50k OCI with how oil tech is going it just keeps gettting better.

Top
#145746 - 07/24/05 02:03 AM Re: PAO vs. ESTER oils? which one is better?
Blue99 Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 2233
Loc: Wisconsin
quote:
I don't know. 10-18,000 mile OCI's seem pretty darn "extended drain", wouldn't you say. I don't see anyone even attempting these OCI's w/ GC or especially M1 0W-30.
Ahh, I believe this would be a Redline guy having a cow! [Big Grin]

Top
#145747 - 07/24/05 02:19 AM Re: PAO vs. ESTER oils? which one is better?
boxcartommie22 Offline


Registered: 01/03/03
Posts: 3073
Loc: moutain country
dave at red line the tbn of their oils is 7

Top
#145748 - 07/24/05 03:16 AM Re: PAO vs. ESTER oils? which one is better?
G-MAN Offline


Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 8936
Loc: SC
quote:
Originally posted by boxcartommie22:
dave at red line the tbn of their oils is 7

[LOL!]

Top
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 >