HDEO bad for gas motors?

[Pantdino]

There is a debate going on on the Pantera owner's forum regarding what oil to use. These cars have a Ford 351 Cleveland V8 from the early 1970's.
Moss Motors, which sells primarily to old British car owners, has a website selling a 20W-50, high-ZDDP special oil for flat-tappet cars. There it claims oils designed for diesels have too much detergent, which decreases film strength and can lead to bearing wear in a gas engine.

Is there any truth to this, or are they just trying to sell their product?

 

[MinivanMauler]

Ask Moss Motors for the source of their information. I suspect you'll deafened by their silence.

 

[bruce381]

""which decreases film strength""

No Detergents MAY compete for the metal surface with ZDDP and as such under high loads scuffing may increase.

Normal bearings conditions will be in a hydrodynamic regime and will not NEED any AW or EP, just at startup.

IMHO a 20/50 is way to thick for a clevland motor perhaps they sell thatb is cause thats the only high ZDDP NON diesel oil they can find.

Also older engine already "broken" in will not need >1,200 ppm Zn and modern oils should be OK

bruce

 

[soldierman]

If there was a decrease in film strength I think it would show up as wear in a diesel FIRST. A diesels ignition system works on detonation and they sound like some little man beating the [censored] out of the pistons, rods, and crankshaft with a 10lb sledge.

Sorry but sounds like a line of [censored] to me.

My 91 gallant done 200,000 on Rotella T 15w40 untill the cost went up and I started building a stash of sub $1.00 qt oils. The only internal repair done was valve seals at 225,000.

 

[TallPaul]

I would think HDMO should be fine in a gas engine as they are designed for diesel engines and are not cusing any scuffing issues in that application, and we know diesel engines have pretty high load on the connecting rod bearings because of their much higher compression.

Also consider that many HDMO are dual rated for both gas and disel.

But if the Pantera owner wants higher zddp, why not run Valvoline VR-1 which is designed for that purpose.

 

[Pantdino]

Originally Posted By: TallPaul
I would think HDMO should be fine in a gas engine as they are designed for diesel engines and are not cusing any scuffing issues in that application, and we know diesel engines have pretty high load on the connecting rod bearings because of their much higher compression.

Also consider that many HDMO are dual rated for both gas and disel.

But if the Pantera owner wants higher zddp, why not run Valvoline VR-1 which is designed for that purpose.


The Moss website says diesels have larger bearings just for that reason and that's why diesel oil is OK for them. It says gas engines have smaller bearings and need more film strength.

VR-1, to me, is too high a viscosity and too expensive. One could get a ZDDP additive and add it to a lower viscosity oil for a better net result.

From what I can tell HDEO is the best solution at this time.
If the government starts cutting the ZDDP levels of those also in the future the situation may change.

 

[KA426]

I'd go with Valvoline VR-1 or better yet Brad Penn Penn Grade 1 in either 10w-30 or 40 wt. They both have high doses of both zinc and phosphorous for anti-wear.

 

[Steve S]

HDEOS work great for gasoline engines. I have great experience with HDEOS in gasoline engines.

 

[LoneRanger]

Originally Posted By: soldierman
A diesels ignition system works on detonation and they sound like some little man beating the [censored] out of the pistons, rods, and crankshaft with a 10lb sledge.


Make it 2lb ball-peen hammer and you have described the sound of my wife's 1.9 liter Volkswagen diesel, lol.

 

[rshunter]

Originally Posted By: LoneRanger
Originally Posted By: soldierman
A diesels ignition system works on detonation and they sound like some little man beating the [censored] out of the pistons, rods, and crankshaft with a 10lb sledge.


Make it 2lb ball-peen hammer and you have described the sound of my wife's 1.9 liter Volkswagen diesel, lol.
It's the little man's kid, doing his thing.

BTW, your wife should be ashamed of herself, employing child labor...

 

[XS650]

Originally Posted By: LoneRanger
Originally Posted By: soldierman
A diesels ignition system works on detonation and they sound like some little man beating the [censored] out of the pistons, rods, and crankshaft with a 10lb sledge.


Make it 2lb ball-peen hammer and you have described the sound of my wife's 1.9 liter Volkswagen diesel, lol.


Being a German car it's a 1.000 kg hammer. Metric and precise.

 

[TallPaul]

Originally Posted By: Pantdino

The Moss website says diesels have larger bearings just for that reason and that's why diesel oil is OK for them. It says gas engines have smaller bearings and need more film strength.

VR-1, to me, is too high a viscosity and too expensive. One could get a ZDDP additive and add it to a lower viscosity oil for a better net result.

From what I can tell HDEO is the best solution at this time.
If the government starts cutting the ZDDP levels of those also in the future the situation may change.
VR-1 comes in 10w30 an 20w50 (can mix to get 15w40), also straight 30, 40, 50, and 60, so you can run VR-1, but may have to order from local speed shop or NAPA store. Murrays (part CSK now) used to carry the 10w30, but now only has the thicker grades.

 

[EagleFTE]

First I've heard about such a claim concerning HDEOs in gas engines. Also it's the first I've heard of Moss or "Collectors Choice Oil". I have seen similar no name "High ZDDP", "Pre Ban" oils for certain applications such as classics. But as noted there are still some high (1200 ppm and up) oils out there. they just don't have a stinking star burst. Red Line, Amsoil, Mobil, Royal Purple, Brad Penn, and others have oils to suit a 351 Cleveland right off the shelf without aftermarket additives. Sure I wish there were more and I wish they cost less, but they are not extinct yet.

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: Pantdino
There is a debate going on on the Pantera owner's forum regarding what oil to use. These cars have a Ford 351 Cleveland V8 from the early 1970's.
Moss Motors, which sells primarily to old British car owners, has a website selling a 20W-50, high-ZDDP special oil for flat-tappet cars. There it claims oils designed for diesels have too much detergent, which decreases film strength and can lead to bearing wear in a gas engine.

Is there any truth to this, or are they just trying to sell their product?



I certainly don't believe the claim, even if its based on perhaps some germ of truth. My common sense tells me that for the detergent package to compete THAT much with the rest of the additive package, the oil would have to consist mostly of detergents. It doesn't.

Furthermore, there are loads of people including myself) who have had great experience running HDEO (Rotella T synthetic 5w40 in my case) in gasoline engines.

Thirdly- by modern standards the 350C is kinda like a diesel. Compared to modern gas engines, it produces scads of torque at a relatively low RPM. Compared to many modern gas engines, it has HUGE bearings. Its got a flat-tappet cam (unless its been retrofitted). I think it would be a perfect candidate for HDEO.

Finally- the fact that they're recommending a 20w50 for an American v8 bothers me. My experience is that American v8s in good condition really don't need nor do they respond well to thick oils. Flow is more important than pressure, and unless the engine is worn out to the point that it can't maintain pressure on anything but 20w50, the *most* it needs is an Xw40. Probably an Xw30.

 

[Caiwu]

This article also talked about this topic.

 

[Caiwu]

Sorry the website is http://www.zddplus.com/TechBrief6%20-%20...e%20Engines.pdf