Where do the higher iron #'s come from when using Mobil 1 5W30? I realize the UOA is a tool, but it seems Mobil 1 does consistantly show higer iron #'s than most other oils in the 5W30 grade.
Frank D
Frank D
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Originally Posted By: mva
When I pay a premium price for a high end oil I expect to see low wear rates.
But the point of the last few posts have been that a UOA may be better in showing how much life is remaining in the oil than absolute wear.
You may actually be getting lower (or higher) wear rates and the UOA may not show it. I have never believed in UOAs for engine wear unless there's a large problem and numbers start going up by a factor of 10.
When I pay a premium price for a high end oil I expect to see low wear rates.
But the point of the last few posts have been that a UOA may be better in showing how much life is remaining in the oil than absolute wear.
You may actually be getting lower (or higher) wear rates and the UOA may not show it. I have never believed in UOAs for engine wear unless there's a large problem and numbers start going up by a factor of 10.
Hi,
BuickGN - Yes you have it basically correct
Where "companion" wear metals (such as copper, lead, tin etc)rise in consort the UOA "tool" starts to become really effective
At one stage many years ago I believe CAT were going to introduce "trace" elements to indicate the remaining estimated life of certain components. I don't believe that it ever happened - improved technologies probably overwhelmed the concept!
UOAs have been around for several decades and CAT was the leader in the field as they were with lubricant Approvals for their components
BuickGN - Yes you have it basically correct
Where "companion" wear metals (such as copper, lead, tin etc)rise in consort the UOA "tool" starts to become really effective
At one stage many years ago I believe CAT were going to introduce "trace" elements to indicate the remaining estimated life of certain components. I don't believe that it ever happened - improved technologies probably overwhelmed the concept!
UOAs have been around for several decades and CAT was the leader in the field as they were with lubricant Approvals for their components
Originally Posted By: otrdriver725
hello everyone. just before christmas i went out and bought myself a new pickup truck! It is a 2007 GMC Sierra classic 1500. my last truck had the 3.8 liter v6. This time i went all out and got the big 4.8liter v8! I know this big powerhouse v8 will need a very special oil but i cannot decide what brand to use. I only want the best so i was thinking of using fully synthetic supertech oil but i can not seem to find it in 20w50. the manual says to use 5w30 but i know better than that. I will be changing the oil every 2500 to 3000 miles for long engine life. any sugestions? By the way i am sure you will all have alot of questions for me about my new truck so let me just say YEA SHE REALLY GOES! thanks.
You live in northern Minnesota, use 20w-50 oil, and you want your new truck to last a long time? Hello? The biggest cause of excessive engine wear is startup starvation and lack of lubrication. Using 20w-50 when it is 10 degrees below zero will not make your engine last longer. Why even bother using synthetic oil if you are going to change it every 3000 miles? I live in Texas where it really does get hot (110 in the summer sometimes) and 5w-30 does very well here. You need to be using 5w-20 or 0w-20 in the winter up there and 5w-30 in the summer and run synthetic oil for at least 5-6000 miles even the cheaper Walmart brand. I have driven Chevy trucks here for years and it is not unusual to get 250,000 miles from a Chevy V-8 engine using conventional 5w-30 oil changed at 5000 mile OCIs.
hello everyone. just before christmas i went out and bought myself a new pickup truck! It is a 2007 GMC Sierra classic 1500. my last truck had the 3.8 liter v6. This time i went all out and got the big 4.8liter v8! I know this big powerhouse v8 will need a very special oil but i cannot decide what brand to use. I only want the best so i was thinking of using fully synthetic supertech oil but i can not seem to find it in 20w50. the manual says to use 5w30 but i know better than that. I will be changing the oil every 2500 to 3000 miles for long engine life. any sugestions? By the way i am sure you will all have alot of questions for me about my new truck so let me just say YEA SHE REALLY GOES! thanks.
You live in northern Minnesota, use 20w-50 oil, and you want your new truck to last a long time? Hello? The biggest cause of excessive engine wear is startup starvation and lack of lubrication. Using 20w-50 when it is 10 degrees below zero will not make your engine last longer. Why even bother using synthetic oil if you are going to change it every 3000 miles? I live in Texas where it really does get hot (110 in the summer sometimes) and 5w-30 does very well here. You need to be using 5w-20 or 0w-20 in the winter up there and 5w-30 in the summer and run synthetic oil for at least 5-6000 miles even the cheaper Walmart brand. I have driven Chevy trucks here for years and it is not unusual to get 250,000 miles from a Chevy V-8 engine using conventional 5w-30 oil changed at 5000 mile OCIs.
OVERKILL
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Originally Posted By: mva
When I pay a premium price for a high end oil I expect to see low wear rates.
Using what evaluation methodology though?
That's the issue here! What you see as "higher wear" on the UOA may not translate to ACTUAL wear in the engine!
Look at the examples Doug gave with 150ppm wear numbers. There are people on this forum that would have heart palpitations just THINKING about iron numbers that high. Yet he put 2 MILLION Km on that engine, tore it down (this is the KEY part here) and everything was within spec.
So exactly WHAT was that 150ppm telling him?
UOA's are GREAT for identifying coolant leaks and the like. I've seen that on here a PILE of times. Especially with the GM 3.8's. They have probably saved MANY people's engines. Helping them identify a coolant leak before it became a real issue.
When BEARING material shows up. That can lead to an early identification of a REAL ISSUE in the engine.
But when you are comparing the difference between 2ppm and 15ppm of iron and using this as a basis to condemn or approve a particular oil, you are using that tool incorrectly, as Doug has indicated. Because without actual tear-down testing to properly evaluate REAL wear, you have no idea where that "iron signature" is coming from.
When I pay a premium price for a high end oil I expect to see low wear rates.
Using what evaluation methodology though?
That's the issue here! What you see as "higher wear" on the UOA may not translate to ACTUAL wear in the engine!
Look at the examples Doug gave with 150ppm wear numbers. There are people on this forum that would have heart palpitations just THINKING about iron numbers that high. Yet he put 2 MILLION Km on that engine, tore it down (this is the KEY part here) and everything was within spec.
So exactly WHAT was that 150ppm telling him?
UOA's are GREAT for identifying coolant leaks and the like. I've seen that on here a PILE of times. Especially with the GM 3.8's. They have probably saved MANY people's engines. Helping them identify a coolant leak before it became a real issue.
When BEARING material shows up. That can lead to an early identification of a REAL ISSUE in the engine.
But when you are comparing the difference between 2ppm and 15ppm of iron and using this as a basis to condemn or approve a particular oil, you are using that tool incorrectly, as Doug has indicated. Because without actual tear-down testing to properly evaluate REAL wear, you have no idea where that "iron signature" is coming from.
I actually agree with that 100%, despite what others are trying to imply.
But I stick by my specific statement. If you put an oil that does not flow through the oil pump pickup screen upon cold start-up, you will have more wear than an oil which easily flows and is pumped.
Also, many here would love to actually see the tear down measurement data.
But I stick by my specific statement. If you put an oil that does not flow through the oil pump pickup screen upon cold start-up, you will have more wear than an oil which easily flows and is pumped.
Also, many here would love to actually see the tear down measurement data.
I've gone over 30 years and way too many miles and never had a oil related failure.
And I've run pretty well every oil out there. I've not had to tear down a engine (they all work well even after hundreds of thousands of miles on some) except for head gaskets which were the fault of it being a Ford.
I still back up Pablo with his statement that running 20-50 in a engine that is in MN is just wrong. The wear metals would be higher and engine life shorter.
And I've run pretty well every oil out there. I've not had to tear down a engine (they all work well even after hundreds of thousands of miles on some) except for head gaskets which were the fault of it being a Ford.
I still back up Pablo with his statement that running 20-50 in a engine that is in MN is just wrong. The wear metals would be higher and engine life shorter.
Doug and BuickGN cleared a lot up for me, thanks. I am trying to understand UOA's and for me the only real need would be to see if the engine is ingesting dirt, and if I have coolant leaking in the oil. I was always under the opinion that the only way to detect how well an oil is doing is to tear an engine down and measure it, and while you're at it check how clean it is. For the sake of argument an engine showing 10 ppm of iron vs 20 ppm of iron in 5000 miles of use isn't going to amount to a hill of beans in the real world. But if it went from 10 ppm to 200 ppm something is going on. They're a good idea, sort of like a yearly visit to the doctor.
But I still think in MN winters a 20W50 is going to show more wear than a 5W30 would, the question is how long will it take for it to rear its ugly head?
JMO
Frank D
But I still think in MN winters a 20W50 is going to show more wear than a 5W30 would, the question is how long will it take for it to rear its ugly head?
JMO
Frank D
This thread went from being amusing to very insightful. Thanks Doug and Overkill for shedding light on the issue of SP UOAs and ppm levels. A lot of BITOG "firm opinions" need to be rethought.
Bitog shined here.
Originally Posted By: DragRace
...........I've used Mobil 1 synthetic in my vehicles for almost 10 years and have NEVER had any mechanical related failure using Mobil 1 synthetic. But, when certain people see the high iron content that Mobil ! has in the UOA,they freak out and then someone else pops in and say" you better switch to PP,it'll be a alot better oil!"
I've switched to Amsoil,only to try it out,not due to the "high iron content" that many people freak out about on this forum.
Too many people worry about waaaay to much on these forums.
I haven't seen anybody here "freaking out" over M1. All I see is some debate about M1.
If not having a "mechanical related failure for 10 years" is your criteria for oil performance, why are you paying a premium for M1 or Amsoil? A dino oil at half or one third of the cost will meet this criteria.
...........I've used Mobil 1 synthetic in my vehicles for almost 10 years and have NEVER had any mechanical related failure using Mobil 1 synthetic. But, when certain people see the high iron content that Mobil ! has in the UOA,they freak out and then someone else pops in and say" you better switch to PP,it'll be a alot better oil!"
I've switched to Amsoil,only to try it out,not due to the "high iron content" that many people freak out about on this forum.
Too many people worry about waaaay to much on these forums.
I haven't seen anybody here "freaking out" over M1. All I see is some debate about M1.
If not having a "mechanical related failure for 10 years" is your criteria for oil performance, why are you paying a premium for M1 or Amsoil? A dino oil at half or one third of the cost will meet this criteria.
I agree that you could run quite high iron numbers and still have the engine outlast the rest of the vehicle.
Many people on this site are going for better than this and trying to achieve close to zero wear by installing the best possible oil, oil filter and air filter. And they are willing to pay a bit extra for these items, as long as they have better real or preceived quality.
They optimize change intervals of these items by doing UOA's and also use the UOA to ensure there are no other problems.
It is not practical for the average person to judge the wear by anything other than a UOA. If metals are not showing up in the UOA there is good chance wear is also low.
Many people on this site are going for better than this and trying to achieve close to zero wear by installing the best possible oil, oil filter and air filter. And they are willing to pay a bit extra for these items, as long as they have better real or preceived quality.
They optimize change intervals of these items by doing UOA's and also use the UOA to ensure there are no other problems.
It is not practical for the average person to judge the wear by anything other than a UOA. If metals are not showing up in the UOA there is good chance wear is also low.
Originally Posted By: SubLGT
I haven't seen anybody here "freaking out" over M1. All I see is some debate about M1.
I'm guilty. I was an M1 advocate. But the relentless "15ppm Iron on M1 vs. 8ppm Iron on PP" finally wore me down and I freaked out a couple of wks ago. Took my two jugs of M1 5w20 back to Wally and got me a "gift card". Very embarrassing.
I haven't seen anybody here "freaking out" over M1. All I see is some debate about M1.
I'm guilty. I was an M1 advocate. But the relentless "15ppm Iron on M1 vs. 8ppm Iron on PP" finally wore me down and I freaked out a couple of wks ago. Took my two jugs of M1 5w20 back to Wally and got me a "gift card". Very embarrassing.
LOL! I haven't really "freaked out," but I've just been nudged enough by corporate attitude to be ready to try something else after being a loyal M1 user for...wow, 6 years.
[censored] I wasn't even using M1 5W30. I have 5W20 in there now w/2000 miles on it. After the [censored] hit about M1 and 5W30 I decided I had to get that [censored] out of there ASAP. Got 6 quarts of PP waiting to go in. Soon as it warms up and I can drive the car out it goes.
So yeah I kinda freaked out. We're a paranoid bunch around here. Isn't it obvious?
So yeah I kinda freaked out. We're a paranoid bunch around here. Isn't it obvious?
You use M1... Oh boy...
We are paranoid!
We are paranoid!
I use Mobil 1...5W-40 TDT (API CJ-4)in all 3 of my vehicles. It has few true competitors, especially for the price.
I like some other oils too but with the exception of one of them (Rotella T 5W-40), all of them cost more than Mobil 1.
Quote:
If not having a "mechanical related failure for 10 years" is your criteria for oil performance, why are you paying a premium for M1 or Amsoil? A dino oil at half or one third of the cost will meet this criteria.
Long drain capability and deposit control are two (related) criteria I buy on that rules out mineral oils.
I like some other oils too but with the exception of one of them (Rotella T 5W-40), all of them cost more than Mobil 1.
Quote:
If not having a "mechanical related failure for 10 years" is your criteria for oil performance, why are you paying a premium for M1 or Amsoil? A dino oil at half or one third of the cost will meet this criteria.
Long drain capability and deposit control are two (related) criteria I buy on that rules out mineral oils.
Hi,
Pablo - In response to this from you:
"Also, many here would love to actually see the tear down measurement data."
I have tried to Post a number of pictures (6) - liner, bearings etc but can't figure out how to
Anybody wishing to PM me will get the six pictures via e-mail ASAP
Pablo - I have emailed six pictures to you!
This particular engine of mine (DD Series 60 - 500hp) was dismantled by Detroit Diesel Allison-MTU (manufacturer) in Brisbane, Australia at 1.12m kms. This teardown-inspection was done by their qualified mechanics under my control - also present were DDA-MTU's Senior Engineer and the Commercial Lubricant Engineer from Mobil Australia. All data was eventually referred to NA - these engines are "on-line" back to the Factory
Any engine work (very minimal requirement over nearly 20 years) on my Fleet was always done via the Factory owned Agent Dealers in Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane and Adelaide
However this is but one of many similar exercises done under my auspices over the last nearly 50 years. This has covered a wide variety of engine makes and families - air cooled, water cooled, 2,4,6,8 cylinder, flat, inline, Vee and both LPG, diesel and petrol fuelled!
Pablo - In response to this from you:
"Also, many here would love to actually see the tear down measurement data."
I have tried to Post a number of pictures (6) - liner, bearings etc but can't figure out how to
Anybody wishing to PM me will get the six pictures via e-mail ASAP
Pablo - I have emailed six pictures to you!
This particular engine of mine (DD Series 60 - 500hp) was dismantled by Detroit Diesel Allison-MTU (manufacturer) in Brisbane, Australia at 1.12m kms. This teardown-inspection was done by their qualified mechanics under my control - also present were DDA-MTU's Senior Engineer and the Commercial Lubricant Engineer from Mobil Australia. All data was eventually referred to NA - these engines are "on-line" back to the Factory
Any engine work (very minimal requirement over nearly 20 years) on my Fleet was always done via the Factory owned Agent Dealers in Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane and Adelaide
However this is but one of many similar exercises done under my auspices over the last nearly 50 years. This has covered a wide variety of engine makes and families - air cooled, water cooled, 2,4,6,8 cylinder, flat, inline, Vee and both LPG, diesel and petrol fuelled!
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
...............However this is but one of many similar exercises done under my auspices over the last nearly 50 years. This has covered a wide variety of engine makes and families - air cooled, water cooled, 2,4,6,8 cylinder, flat, inline, Vee and both LPG, diesel and petrol fuelled!
Doug, did you ever have air cooled diesels in your fleet?
...............However this is but one of many similar exercises done under my auspices over the last nearly 50 years. This has covered a wide variety of engine makes and families - air cooled, water cooled, 2,4,6,8 cylinder, flat, inline, Vee and both LPG, diesel and petrol fuelled!
Doug, did you ever have air cooled diesels in your fleet?
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