What`s the opinion on Z-MAX OIL ADDITIVE???
z-maz
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MolaKule
Staff member
This is an oil or fuel additive and needs to be moved to those threads.
Quote:
The unique ability of zMAX to soak into metal - to literally spread deep into the metal - gives zMAX a protective lubricating quality that cannot be found in any ordinary motor oil or any additive product on the market today. Our advanced scientific manufacturing process reformulates the molecular structure of the base product, creating molecules that are smaller than motor oil and able to soak into metals, providing improved, long-lasting lubrication. In addition, the new molecules have a natural affinity for metal and heat.
What they state is the process of diffusion or mass transfer from some external molecule into the lattice structure of ferrous materials.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion
After reading this, please tell how Linkite or Z-Max satifies basic physics.
Quote:
The unique ability of zMAX to soak into metal - to literally spread deep into the metal - gives zMAX a protective lubricating quality that cannot be found in any ordinary motor oil or any additive product on the market today. Our advanced scientific manufacturing process reformulates the molecular structure of the base product, creating molecules that are smaller than motor oil and able to soak into metals, providing improved, long-lasting lubrication. In addition, the new molecules have a natural affinity for metal and heat.
What they state is the process of diffusion or mass transfer from some external molecule into the lattice structure of ferrous materials.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion
After reading this, please tell how Linkite or Z-Max satifies basic physics.
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MolaKule
Staff member
That's fine, but I can assure you this desription of diffusion is very much correct along with the general diffusion equation and Fick's Law formulation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion_equation
I am simply asking the person to educate himself and then evaluate the claims of this product to see if real science (the physics of diffusion) is satisfied.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion_equation
I am simply asking the person to educate himself and then evaluate the claims of this product to see if real science (the physics of diffusion) is satisfied.
I sure wish you would break it down for us math challenged folks.
yeppers
That sure would be great alright.
yeppers
That sure would be great alright.
MolaKule
Staff member
Being a mid-westerner myself, for you little filly, we shall do that.
Quote:
The unique ability of zMAX to soak into metal - to literally spread deep into the metal - gives zMAX a protective lubricating quality that cannot be found in any ordinary motor oil or any additive product on the market today. Our advanced scientific manufacturing process reformulates the molecular structure of the base product, creating molecules that are smaller than motor oil and able to soak into metals, providing improved, long-lasting lubrication. In addition, the new molecules have a natural affinity for metal and heat.
What these poeple are claiming is that the process of diffusion is the mechanism whereby this liquid can invade the metal.
Steel is a metal and is a solid and has a lattice structure
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal_structure
of ferrous, carbon, vanadium, chromium, moly, and other atoms locked together in a tightly bound 3-D structure.
In this case, the diffusion of Z-Max assumes a higher concentration of chemical (liquid) will flow or "invade" the crystal structure of steel.
I would like Z-MAX or Linkite to explain how this liquid can diffuse into a tightly bound steel crystal, and if it does, what is the driving force (mechanism) behind this diffusion.
And once it gets into the metal's crystal structure, how does it reduce friction or whatever the claim happens to be.
And one other item, once it gets into the crystal structure of steel, why and how far does it diffuse into the metal? In other words, why does it penetrate XX mircons and not YY microns?
I am just asking basic physics and chemistry questions about their claims.
I.E, IMHO, I think their claims are bunk.
Quote:
The unique ability of zMAX to soak into metal - to literally spread deep into the metal - gives zMAX a protective lubricating quality that cannot be found in any ordinary motor oil or any additive product on the market today. Our advanced scientific manufacturing process reformulates the molecular structure of the base product, creating molecules that are smaller than motor oil and able to soak into metals, providing improved, long-lasting lubrication. In addition, the new molecules have a natural affinity for metal and heat.
What these poeple are claiming is that the process of diffusion is the mechanism whereby this liquid can invade the metal.
Steel is a metal and is a solid and has a lattice structure
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal_structure
of ferrous, carbon, vanadium, chromium, moly, and other atoms locked together in a tightly bound 3-D structure.
In this case, the diffusion of Z-Max assumes a higher concentration of chemical (liquid) will flow or "invade" the crystal structure of steel.
I would like Z-MAX or Linkite to explain how this liquid can diffuse into a tightly bound steel crystal, and if it does, what is the driving force (mechanism) behind this diffusion.
And once it gets into the metal's crystal structure, how does it reduce friction or whatever the claim happens to be.
And one other item, once it gets into the crystal structure of steel, why and how far does it diffuse into the metal? In other words, why does it penetrate XX mircons and not YY microns?
I am just asking basic physics and chemistry questions about their claims.
I.E, IMHO, I think their claims are bunk.
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YEAH!
That MolaKule is goodie he is.
Thanks MolaKule. You so rock my world.
bless you
That MolaKule is goodie he is.
Thanks MolaKule. You so rock my world.
bless you
Don't bother!!! Z-MAX was taken to court by the Federal Trade Comission some years back for it's claim to be a wonder engine additive. It's claim is that it's nothing more than mineral oil.
I also noticed today that they sell it separately now instead of the enitre kit.
Perhaps they can provide you with 6 bottles of this liquid to try for a year free if they feel confident this product really works.
Durango
I also noticed today that they sell it separately now instead of the enitre kit.
Perhaps they can provide you with 6 bottles of this liquid to try for a year free if they feel confident this product really works.
Durango
So you are saying that NO liquid can soak or get into any metal or just steel? How about iron...aluminum...?????? Unless I am hallucinating I sure have seen it with my own eyes..
I would bet anyone who has done gun bluing and the mfg of such products might have a different view than you do..including soaking into steel
We at Speedway Motorsports are very pleased that the staff of the Federal Trade Commission has specifically confirmed that Oil-Chem can continue to make the following claims in its advertising and promotion of zMAX,” stated Marylaurel E. Wilks, vice president and general counsel of SMI.
zMAX soaks into metal
http://www.zmax.com/testimonials/experts_zmax.pdf
Thanks again for your good products. I just used my last transmission fluid this past month.....
I would bet anyone who has done gun bluing and the mfg of such products might have a different view than you do..including soaking into steel
We at Speedway Motorsports are very pleased that the staff of the Federal Trade Commission has specifically confirmed that Oil-Chem can continue to make the following claims in its advertising and promotion of zMAX,” stated Marylaurel E. Wilks, vice president and general counsel of SMI.
zMAX soaks into metal
http://www.zmax.com/testimonials/experts_zmax.pdf
Thanks again for your good products. I just used my last transmission fluid this past month.....
Durango
zMAX vs. The FTC Summary CONCORD, NC (March 20, 2003) - Oil-Chem Research Corp. (Oil-Chem) and Speedway Motorsports, Inc. (SMI) announced today a resolution to their dispute with the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) concerning the advertising of zMAX Power System.
"We at Speedway Motorsports are very pleased that the staff of the Federal Trade Commission has specifically confirmed that Oil-Chem can continue to make the following claims in its advertising and promotion of zMAX,” stated Marylaurel E. Wilks, vice president and general counsel of SMI.
zMAX soaks into metal.
zMAX reduces friction.
zMAX increases horsepower.
zMAX dissipates engine heat.
zMAX helps to improve or restore gas mileage and reduce emissions in older cars, by virtue of reducing engine deposits.
zMAX helps to maintain gas mileage and emissions in newer cars, by virtue of reducing engine deposits.
zMAX helps to reduce engine wear on engine valve-stems and guides and piston rings and skirts, by virtue of reducing engine deposits.
zMAX helps to extend engine life, by virtue of reducing engine deposits.
This confirmation is specified in an exchange of letters with the Division of Enforcement of the FTC. Oil-Chem’s letter lists the tests and other documents that substantiate the zMAX claims (provided by Oil-Chem to the FTC during the litigation), and the FTC responded that no compliance action would be merited as a result of Oil-Chem making such claims.
Oil-Chem and SMI have not admitted any liability in this litigation. However, in order to avoid the significant expense and time involved in the litigation, the FTC, Oil-Chem and SMI have agreed to end the litigation by the signing of an order, which, in summary, states: (a) Oil-Chem and SMI do not admit any liability and continue to deny any liability; (b) The FTC has issued its compliance letter (which confirms that enforcement is not merited for the eight specified claims); (c) Oil-Chem and SMI will not make advertising claims which are not properly substantiated; and (d) Oil-Chem and SMI will offer a refund of up to $1 million, in the aggregate, to certain purchasers of zMAX, who bought zMAX before January 31, 2001. No refund will be offered to purchasers after that date. For more information visit zMAX.com.
zMAX was developed in 1947 by Joe Lencki as Speedway Cocktail. Sold to the racing industry and car dealerships since it development, it has been marketed as zMAX since1989. AVBLEND, the zMAX formula for aviation, is FAA approved for all piston driven aircraft and has been available since 1980. In addition to company efforts to market zMAX through infomercial, zMAX is available at better auto parts stores including Advance Auto Parts, AutoZone, Checker, Kargen, Murray's Auto Parts, O'Reilly Auto Parts, PepBoys, Schuck's, Strauss Discount Auto, VIP as well as Target stores and [censored]'s Wholesale nationwide. zMAX became a part of Speedway Motorsports Inc in 1987.
"also noticed today that they sell it separately now instead of the enitre kit".
http://www.zmax.com/products/buy_zmax.html
zMAX vs. The FTC Summary CONCORD, NC (March 20, 2003) - Oil-Chem Research Corp. (Oil-Chem) and Speedway Motorsports, Inc. (SMI) announced today a resolution to their dispute with the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) concerning the advertising of zMAX Power System.
"We at Speedway Motorsports are very pleased that the staff of the Federal Trade Commission has specifically confirmed that Oil-Chem can continue to make the following claims in its advertising and promotion of zMAX,” stated Marylaurel E. Wilks, vice president and general counsel of SMI.
zMAX soaks into metal.
zMAX reduces friction.
zMAX increases horsepower.
zMAX dissipates engine heat.
zMAX helps to improve or restore gas mileage and reduce emissions in older cars, by virtue of reducing engine deposits.
zMAX helps to maintain gas mileage and emissions in newer cars, by virtue of reducing engine deposits.
zMAX helps to reduce engine wear on engine valve-stems and guides and piston rings and skirts, by virtue of reducing engine deposits.
zMAX helps to extend engine life, by virtue of reducing engine deposits.
This confirmation is specified in an exchange of letters with the Division of Enforcement of the FTC. Oil-Chem’s letter lists the tests and other documents that substantiate the zMAX claims (provided by Oil-Chem to the FTC during the litigation), and the FTC responded that no compliance action would be merited as a result of Oil-Chem making such claims.
Oil-Chem and SMI have not admitted any liability in this litigation. However, in order to avoid the significant expense and time involved in the litigation, the FTC, Oil-Chem and SMI have agreed to end the litigation by the signing of an order, which, in summary, states: (a) Oil-Chem and SMI do not admit any liability and continue to deny any liability; (b) The FTC has issued its compliance letter (which confirms that enforcement is not merited for the eight specified claims); (c) Oil-Chem and SMI will not make advertising claims which are not properly substantiated; and (d) Oil-Chem and SMI will offer a refund of up to $1 million, in the aggregate, to certain purchasers of zMAX, who bought zMAX before January 31, 2001. No refund will be offered to purchasers after that date. For more information visit zMAX.com.
zMAX was developed in 1947 by Joe Lencki as Speedway Cocktail. Sold to the racing industry and car dealerships since it development, it has been marketed as zMAX since1989. AVBLEND, the zMAX formula for aviation, is FAA approved for all piston driven aircraft and has been available since 1980. In addition to company efforts to market zMAX through infomercial, zMAX is available at better auto parts stores including Advance Auto Parts, AutoZone, Checker, Kargen, Murray's Auto Parts, O'Reilly Auto Parts, PepBoys, Schuck's, Strauss Discount Auto, VIP as well as Target stores and [censored]'s Wholesale nationwide. zMAX became a part of Speedway Motorsports Inc in 1987.
"also noticed today that they sell it separately now instead of the enitre kit".
http://www.zmax.com/products/buy_zmax.html
Well, even if mineral oil could soak into metal, why not spend 99 cents for MO, at the drugstore, instead of $50 for the same thing from zmax? You could even add a tiny amount of food coloring to dye it. Then it would be just like zmax right?
First off that is not the point. A stetement of fact was made and I questioned that. I have respect for Molakule...so much so I bougt his products. However in this case I believe his assesrion about soaking into metal...even steel, to be wrong.
As far as ZMAX being straight "mineral oil".. The way some use that term is saying Zmax is nothing more than the mineral oil you can buy at the drug store.
As far as ZMAX being straight "mineral oil".. The way some use that term is saying Zmax is nothing more than the mineral oil you can buy at the drug store.
I understand that, and yet the basic component is mineral oil isn't it? What is added, or done to it, to make zmax so special it is worth the price they ask? I am sincerely asking.
I would also like to know, just how anything liquid could soak into any metal's crystal lattice, as zmax claims their product can. I am no chemist, but I think that sounds a bit far fetched.
Would you mind explaining how/why Molakule is wrong?
No disrespect intended at all now, and none felt here for you either.
So far though you have merely cited the FTC's ruling as evidence. Really who cares what they say? I would discount their assessment either way on any product. If zmax works it works, and yet I have not, as of yet, seen any real evidence offered of what it actually does.
I would also like to know, just how anything liquid could soak into any metal's crystal lattice, as zmax claims their product can. I am no chemist, but I think that sounds a bit far fetched.
Would you mind explaining how/why Molakule is wrong?
No disrespect intended at all now, and none felt here for you either.
Originally Posted By: Oilgal
I understand that, and yet the basic component is mineral oil isn't it? What is added, or done to it, to make zmax so special it is worth the price they ask? I am sincerely asking.
When he said "mineral oil" I think it was meant as the ingredients werent anything special, not that they were off the shelf mineral oils already available on the shelf.
I understand that, and yet the basic component is mineral oil isn't it? What is added, or done to it, to make zmax so special it is worth the price they ask? I am sincerely asking.
When he said "mineral oil" I think it was meant as the ingredients werent anything special, not that they were off the shelf mineral oils already available on the shelf.
I didn't really think it was the same as Walgreen's lamp oil. I was being too dramatic I guess. I am not totally dense, all the time about everything, that often anyway.
Can even a super duper very low viscosity mineral oil, actually soak into metal as claimed, and if it even could, by what action would that contribute to such a dramatic reduction in friction, as also is claimed? I think I understand the basic issue being discussed. Maybe I have it all wrong. I dunno.
Originally Posted By: Oilgal
and if it even could, by what action would that contribute to such a dramatic reduction in friction, as also is claimed?
+1 Oil molecules are quite small, about 100 times smaller than an asperity on a super, extra highly polished/ground/lapped/burnished surface. I think that if oil soaks into a piece of metal you have a crack.
The gov. paper show this to be nothing but mineral oil, and also shows increased oxidation of crank case oil. The settlement allows most of their claims "by cleaning". All of this points to nothing but Naphthenic or Aromatic mineral oil...which is purposely refined out of motor oil to make it better. It certainly is not worth the $20 that they charge for it.
and if it even could, by what action would that contribute to such a dramatic reduction in friction, as also is claimed?
+1 Oil molecules are quite small, about 100 times smaller than an asperity on a super, extra highly polished/ground/lapped/burnished surface. I think that if oil soaks into a piece of metal you have a crack.
The gov. paper show this to be nothing but mineral oil, and also shows increased oxidation of crank case oil. The settlement allows most of their claims "by cleaning". All of this points to nothing but Naphthenic or Aromatic mineral oil...which is purposely refined out of motor oil to make it better. It certainly is not worth the $20 that they charge for it.
Years ago they set up a display where I worked and every time someone walked by the small monitor would fire up and show the same 5 minute video. Eventually we just took the batteries out since we never sold a single set and hated the noise.
http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2001/02/zmax1.shtm
http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/legal/zmaxcomp.html
Z-Max was allowed to sell of their inventory held at the time of the judgment if they would tone down their claims from a big pile of c$rap to a smaller pile of c$ap. The FTC says that if you are going to sell snake oil you have to follow their guide lines.
They still have a lot of inventory, so although the FTC beats the drum about protecting us they do allow us to bleed a little bit to keep the gears of commerce running. In the end the FTC believes that screwing the public is ok if you follow the rules.
If you pour Z-Max in your car, anywhere, then you are a working example that helps to prove that Darwin was correct. If you believe that something in a bottle can invade a dirty cylinder wall or bearing, transported by an unknown oil in who knows what condition with out regard to the pH of the carrier or temperature then you I say, pour it in and have at it. I'll bet that Molakule isn't pouring Z-Max in his engine any time soon.
http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/legal/zmaxcomp.html
Z-Max was allowed to sell of their inventory held at the time of the judgment if they would tone down their claims from a big pile of c$rap to a smaller pile of c$ap. The FTC says that if you are going to sell snake oil you have to follow their guide lines.
They still have a lot of inventory, so although the FTC beats the drum about protecting us they do allow us to bleed a little bit to keep the gears of commerce running. In the end the FTC believes that screwing the public is ok if you follow the rules.
If you pour Z-Max in your car, anywhere, then you are a working example that helps to prove that Darwin was correct. If you believe that something in a bottle can invade a dirty cylinder wall or bearing, transported by an unknown oil in who knows what condition with out regard to the pH of the carrier or temperature then you I say, pour it in and have at it. I'll bet that Molakule isn't pouring Z-Max in his engine any time soon.
MolaKule
Staff member
Quote:
However in this case I believe his assesrion about soaking into metal...even steel, to be wrong.
To clarify, what I am stating is that from what I have read as to Z-MAX's own claims, is that their claim of their liquid soaking into metal points to the mechanism of a physical process called "diffusion."
I am simply asking, "Is this diffusion process the process by which their liquid gets into metal, and if so, please explain how; or is there some other physical principle by which their oil gets into metal, and how far."
However in this case I believe his assesrion about soaking into metal...even steel, to be wrong.
To clarify, what I am stating is that from what I have read as to Z-MAX's own claims, is that their claim of their liquid soaking into metal points to the mechanism of a physical process called "diffusion."
I am simply asking, "Is this diffusion process the process by which their liquid gets into metal, and if so, please explain how; or is there some other physical principle by which their oil gets into metal, and how far."
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