Ye think Idle stop engines == bad for oil?
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Originally Posted By: JHZR2
UPS shuts off their truck at every house they stop at.
I've actually watched them deliver a package to my next-door neighbour, get back in the truck, start it, drive 75' to my house , stop the truck, and deliver a package to me.
UPS shuts off their truck at every house they stop at.
I've actually watched them deliver a package to my next-door neighbour, get back in the truck, start it, drive 75' to my house , stop the truck, and deliver a package to me.
Originally Posted By: theaveng
That's a good point but the surfaces still have oil in between them. 30 seconds of idlestop isn't enough for the oil to drop out.
Just because there is oil on the surfaces does not mean that they are in a hydrodynamic state. An engine will pass through boundary lubrication, mixed and hydrodynamic regimes at several times during a start, stop and even when changing speeds.
That's a good point but the surfaces still have oil in between them. 30 seconds of idlestop isn't enough for the oil to drop out.
Just because there is oil on the surfaces does not mean that they are in a hydrodynamic state. An engine will pass through boundary lubrication, mixed and hydrodynamic regimes at several times during a start, stop and even when changing speeds.
Yeah like I said: Good point. We'll find out when I do my oil analysis.
Originally Posted By: CMMeadAM
Redline Max is nowhere near 4000 RPM. More Bloviating !
Bloviating??? How RUDE of you.
The original Prius that I testdrove/rented in 2001 was redlined at just over 4000 rpm (don't recall the exact number). I had no way of knowing they changed the specs in later models. I'm not omniscient or perfect, so don';t expect either one. You could have corrected my error POLITELY ("Actually they increased it to 5200") instead of like a highschool or college bully smacking down a nerd.
Originally Posted By: CMMeadAM
Redline Max is nowhere near 4000 RPM. More Bloviating !
Bloviating??? How RUDE of you.
The original Prius that I testdrove/rented in 2001 was redlined at just over 4000 rpm (don't recall the exact number). I had no way of knowing they changed the specs in later models. I'm not omniscient or perfect, so don';t expect either one. You could have corrected my error POLITELY ("Actually they increased it to 5200") instead of like a highschool or college bully smacking down a nerd.
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JHZR2
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Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Would I be concerned at initial start and the first few stop signs and lights on a commute at -10F.
In the summer or any normal condition, lets just call above freezing? Wouldn't bother me at all. In fact I manually do this in some conditions.
And for a warm engine with battery at full state of charge, I see the extra cycles as nearly irrelevant.
UPS shuts off their truck at every house they stop at. I'd imagine that if it was poor economics, they wouldn't.
If there is some implication of fuel dilution due to some startup enrichment, I doubt the duration is long enough to make a difference.
The only concern I'd imagine is enough heat loss to take the o2 sensors offline or cool the catalyst enough that it has to light off over and over.
The -10 situation you mentioned would be tough, or heavy NYC type traffic, where you move 10' stop for a few minutes, move another 10' and repeat for an hour or more. Testing it under conditions like many NYC commuters do year after year would make an interesting test. Then compare fuel savings for the life of the vehicle vs. additional repairs if any and see if its worth it or not.
As far as UPS I'm sure they calculated their savings, and reduced their liability by no longer leaving vehicles running while unattended. At least that's what I was told by a UPS employee I know. They're actually pretty strict about turning a truck off while making a delivery, you can actually lose your job for not doing so.
I know, Ive lived it all my life. But the reality is that for one thing, NYC rarely gets to -10F for any practical duration (maybe wind chill, but that is not relevant for vehicles), and once the car is run for a little bit, the innards are no longer cold soaked at -10F. Plus, as someone else noted, the engine may run continuous until hitting a certain temprature.
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Would I be concerned at initial start and the first few stop signs and lights on a commute at -10F.
In the summer or any normal condition, lets just call above freezing? Wouldn't bother me at all. In fact I manually do this in some conditions.
And for a warm engine with battery at full state of charge, I see the extra cycles as nearly irrelevant.
UPS shuts off their truck at every house they stop at. I'd imagine that if it was poor economics, they wouldn't.
If there is some implication of fuel dilution due to some startup enrichment, I doubt the duration is long enough to make a difference.
The only concern I'd imagine is enough heat loss to take the o2 sensors offline or cool the catalyst enough that it has to light off over and over.
The -10 situation you mentioned would be tough, or heavy NYC type traffic, where you move 10' stop for a few minutes, move another 10' and repeat for an hour or more. Testing it under conditions like many NYC commuters do year after year would make an interesting test. Then compare fuel savings for the life of the vehicle vs. additional repairs if any and see if its worth it or not.
As far as UPS I'm sure they calculated their savings, and reduced their liability by no longer leaving vehicles running while unattended. At least that's what I was told by a UPS employee I know. They're actually pretty strict about turning a truck off while making a delivery, you can actually lose your job for not doing so.
I know, Ive lived it all my life. But the reality is that for one thing, NYC rarely gets to -10F for any practical duration (maybe wind chill, but that is not relevant for vehicles), and once the car is run for a little bit, the innards are no longer cold soaked at -10F. Plus, as someone else noted, the engine may run continuous until hitting a certain temprature.
Originally Posted By: RF Overlord
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
UPS shuts off their truck at every house they stop at.
I've actually watched them deliver a package to my next-door neighbour, get back in the truck, start it, drive 75' to my house , stop the truck, and deliver a package to me.
If he wants to keep his job that's what he has to do. Here some of the houses are on 40'x100' and they do the same thing.
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
UPS shuts off their truck at every house they stop at.
I've actually watched them deliver a package to my next-door neighbour, get back in the truck, start it, drive 75' to my house , stop the truck, and deliver a package to me.
If he wants to keep his job that's what he has to do. Here some of the houses are on 40'x100' and they do the same thing.
Originally Posted By: theaveng
Yeah like I said: Good point. We'll find out when I do my oil analysis.
Originally Posted By: CMMeadAM
Redline Max is nowhere near 4000 RPM. More Bloviating !
Bloviating??? How RUDE of you.
The original Prius that I testdrove/rented in 2001 was redlined at just over 4000 rpm (don't recall the exact number). I had no way of knowing they changed the specs in later models. I'm not omniscient or perfect, so don';t expect either one. You could have corrected my error POLITELY ("Actually they increased it to 5200") instead of like a highschool or college bully smacking down a nerd.
My, my.....sensitive ! FYI...the 2001 Prius ICE was rated at 114 Hp at 4500 RPM. Max RPM was undoubtedly higher. It's kind of hard to tell if you're "red lining" the engine without a tach. Also for your edification, the Prius doesn't have one. Not in 2001...or....now. Did the info come from the same source that stated Amsoil dealers make just $100 ? LOL !
Yeah like I said: Good point. We'll find out when I do my oil analysis.
Originally Posted By: CMMeadAM
Redline Max is nowhere near 4000 RPM. More Bloviating !
Bloviating??? How RUDE of you.
The original Prius that I testdrove/rented in 2001 was redlined at just over 4000 rpm (don't recall the exact number). I had no way of knowing they changed the specs in later models. I'm not omniscient or perfect, so don';t expect either one. You could have corrected my error POLITELY ("Actually they increased it to 5200") instead of like a highschool or college bully smacking down a nerd.
My, my.....sensitive ! FYI...the 2001 Prius ICE was rated at 114 Hp at 4500 RPM. Max RPM was undoubtedly higher. It's kind of hard to tell if you're "red lining" the engine without a tach. Also for your edification, the Prius doesn't have one. Not in 2001...or....now. Did the info come from the same source that stated Amsoil dealers make just $100 ? LOL !
^^^Yes, indeed. Be careful now.
Note in this comment he completely missed Shannow's point as well:
"Ring ridge?
That's a good point but the surfaces still have oil in between them. 30 seconds of idlestop isn't enough for the oil to drop out."
When the ring sits anywhere STATIONARY with sprung pressure against the cylinder wall there will be no oil between the two points.
ooops, I just bloviated! Anyone got a wet wipe?
Note in this comment he completely missed Shannow's point as well:
"Ring ridge?
That's a good point but the surfaces still have oil in between them. 30 seconds of idlestop isn't enough for the oil to drop out."
When the ring sits anywhere STATIONARY with sprung pressure against the cylinder wall there will be no oil between the two points.
ooops, I just bloviated! Anyone got a wet wipe?
I didn't miss the point. "Ring ridge?" is shorthand for "I don't know what you just said. Please explain it to me." Which you just did.
Originally Posted By: CMMeadAM
the 2001 Prius ICE was rated at 114 Hp at 4500 RPM. Max RPM was undoubtedly higher.
No. The 1st gen Prius was rev-limited by Toyota to 4500. In Japan it was limited to 4000. That was done to limit fuel consumption.
I can't believe you made such a big fuss & felt the need to insult me ("bloviating"), just because I made a simple mistake of referring to 1st gen Prius instead of 3rd gen. I wasn't even discussing the Prius. I was merely making an offhand comment that maybe I should limit my insight's top revolutions.
Originally Posted By: CMMeadAM
the 2001 Prius ICE was rated at 114 Hp at 4500 RPM. Max RPM was undoubtedly higher.
No. The 1st gen Prius was rev-limited by Toyota to 4500. In Japan it was limited to 4000. That was done to limit fuel consumption.
I can't believe you made such a big fuss & felt the need to insult me ("bloviating"), just because I made a simple mistake of referring to 1st gen Prius instead of 3rd gen. I wasn't even discussing the Prius. I was merely making an offhand comment that maybe I should limit my insight's top revolutions.
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Originally Posted By: Mr_Incredible
And as said earlier, starting a warm car with a charged battery isn't very tough.
Agreed. The taxi fleet experienced plenty of warm starts throughout warmer days. It's not like starters were replaced terribly often.
And as said earlier, starting a warm car with a charged battery isn't very tough.
Agreed. The taxi fleet experienced plenty of warm starts throughout warmer days. It's not like starters were replaced terribly often.
Originally Posted By: CMMeadAM
2010-2012 Prius ICE 1.8 power generation is rated at 5200 RPM.
Redline Max is nowhere near 4000 RPM. More Bloviating !
For the Prius C the max-allowed rpm is 4800-ish. I've seen 4832. Redline is not relevant.
For the UOAs I've looked at for Prii the iron and chromium numbers mirror "normal" cars. How many oil molecules can dance between the rings and cylinder walls also appears largely not revlevant.
2010-2012 Prius ICE 1.8 power generation is rated at 5200 RPM.
Redline Max is nowhere near 4000 RPM. More Bloviating !
For the Prius C the max-allowed rpm is 4800-ish. I've seen 4832. Redline is not relevant.
For the UOAs I've looked at for Prii the iron and chromium numbers mirror "normal" cars. How many oil molecules can dance between the rings and cylinder walls also appears largely not revlevant.
As long as they're careful with the parameters of when it will / won't shut down, and it tries to maintain certain temperature targets, etc. it shouldn't hurt durability in any meaningful way, provided the starters and such can tolerate it (which I'd expect has been tested at least fairly well by this point). Even if it reduces the longevity of the engine by 10%, the engine will probably still last longer than most of the parts around it, and longer than most people care for it to.
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: Mr_Incredible
And as said earlier, starting a warm car with a charged battery isn't very tough.
Agreed. The taxi fleet experienced plenty of warm starts throughout warmer days. It's not like starters were replaced terribly often.
I wonder how a stop start non-hybrid would do as a NYC taxi? We'll know soon enough.
Originally Posted By: rslifkin
As long as they're careful with the parameters of when it will / won't shut down, and it tries to maintain certain temperature targets, etc. it shouldn't hurt durability in any meaningful way, provided the starters and such can tolerate it (which I'd expect has been tested at least fairly well by this point). Even if it reduces the longevity of the engine by 10%, the engine will probably still last longer than most of the parts around it, and longer than most people care for it to.
Some people might want that hypothetical extra 10% of engine life. In fact that number could be higher or lower. Being able to de-activate the system IMO is a good idea for those not interested in it. Judging from what BMW did with issuing the service bulletin, not everyone is happy with the idea. Its a shame it can't be optional equipment. This is JMO.
Originally Posted By: Mr_Incredible
And as said earlier, starting a warm car with a charged battery isn't very tough.
Agreed. The taxi fleet experienced plenty of warm starts throughout warmer days. It's not like starters were replaced terribly often.
I wonder how a stop start non-hybrid would do as a NYC taxi? We'll know soon enough.
Originally Posted By: rslifkin
As long as they're careful with the parameters of when it will / won't shut down, and it tries to maintain certain temperature targets, etc. it shouldn't hurt durability in any meaningful way, provided the starters and such can tolerate it (which I'd expect has been tested at least fairly well by this point). Even if it reduces the longevity of the engine by 10%, the engine will probably still last longer than most of the parts around it, and longer than most people care for it to.
Some people might want that hypothetical extra 10% of engine life. In fact that number could be higher or lower. Being able to de-activate the system IMO is a good idea for those not interested in it. Judging from what BMW did with issuing the service bulletin, not everyone is happy with the idea. Its a shame it can't be optional equipment. This is JMO.
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
I wonder how a stop start non-hybrid would do as a NYC taxi? We'll know soon enough.
Agreed. I'd be interested to hear how things turn out. Incidentally, there are several Priuses on taxi usage here, and they seem to be holding up fairly well. The gas savings are apparently quite significant. My brother even got rid of his Town Car and put on a Prius.
I wonder how a stop start non-hybrid would do as a NYC taxi? We'll know soon enough.
Agreed. I'd be interested to hear how things turn out. Incidentally, there are several Priuses on taxi usage here, and they seem to be holding up fairly well. The gas savings are apparently quite significant. My brother even got rid of his Town Car and put on a Prius.
The stop/start technology has been around for a long time. Can anyone dig up an article or notice that it has been anything but reliable and non-engine-life-threatening?
It's really gonna bum a lot of haters out when the Prius brand doesn't blow up and kill millions of people. Will there be death bed conversions from them?
It's really gonna bum a lot of haters out when the Prius brand doesn't blow up and kill millions of people. Will there be death bed conversions from them?
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