Wynn's Multivehicle Synthetic???

[Whitewolf]

Hi Buster,

Aside from what the fluid blender does one of the problems is just who controls what the additive supplier does? As you say a company such as Amsoil may well purchase an additive package (in fact they do) but do they know that what they purchased say today is EXACTLY what they purchased last year? I can tell you that the answer (regardless of what ANYONE else thinks) is NO. They might think and honestly believe that they do know but they don't.

 

[Pablo]

So another silly notion goes by from Whitewolf. That is a ridiculous implication.

If some of the additives become NLA (yes this does happen) Amsoil will stupidly throw any old thing in the formula?, or Amsoil can be shipped rocks and sticks in a bag and toss that in with some base oil and call it ATF? Come on man, I know it pains you bad, real bad - but Amsoil might, just maybe have a little smarts.

 

[Gary Allan]

Why would that be any different for any producer of a licensed product and how do they cope with it?

 

[Whitewolf]

Well, it depends whether or not you know what goes on and how to look for it. Most people ( even really experienced ones) don't. I really can't say much more, sorry.

 

[Whitewolf]

Pablo,
If only it were silly! You have no idea!

 

[MolaKule]

Quote:
Aside from what the fluid blender does one of the problems is just who controls what the additive supplier does? As you say a company such as Amsoil may well purchase an additive package (in fact they do) but do they know that what they purchased say today is EXACTLY what they purchased last year?


Yes. A blender or formulator worth their salt and reputation has to analyze each shipment of additive that the additive supplier sends them, whether it be a 10,000 gallons tank car or a barrel. This is especially critical if it be a PCMO additive or an ATF additive.

And one of the reasons for batch numbers is that each batch has an equivalent analysis linked to it.

 

[MolaKule]

FWIW, Wynn's was the first aftermarket additive company to use refined bio oils in their Friction Reducer.

 

[Whitewolf]

The point is knowing HOW to check and what to look for!

 

[kazual]

I WORKED IN THE DAIRY BUSINESS FOR 8 YEARS AND EACH TANKER TRAILER THAT CAME IN WITH RAW MILK WAS TESTED FOR QUALITY BEFORE IT WAS EVEN ALLOWED TO BACK IN AND BE UNLOADED. EACH TANKER OF CREAM OR FINISHED PRODUCT WAS SAMPLED AND TESTED JUST BEFORE IT LEFT. I AM ALMOST CERTAIN THAT EACH COMPANY THAT MANUFACTURES ANY PRODUCT HAS SOME FORM OF QUALITY CONTROL TO TEST THE PRODUCT AND TO ENSURE THAT IT MEETS A CERTAIN STANDARD. AT THE DAIRY I WORKED AT, EACH FINISHED GALLON OR 1/2 GALLON HAD BATCH NUMBERS AND TIME AND DATE STAMPS. MOBIL, QUAKERSTATE, AND AMSOIL HAVE THERE OWN SYSTEM. THERE HAS TO BE SOME QUALITY CONTROL AND STANDARDS. I AM SURE THAT THE WYNNS MULTI ATF MEETS SOME STANDARD.

 

[buster]

fwiw, here is a pdf on Amsoil's quality control.



Amsoil QC

Quote:
Raw materials are inspected upon delivery and if they
don’t make the grade, they’re sent back immediately.
Incoming chemicals and additives are quarantined until
they successfully complete the same series of tests that
finished AMSOIL products receive.
......“We test everything,” said Chief
Chemist Mike Rodeghiero.


I believe what Whitewolf says, but I also believe Amsoil's quality to be top notch. Engine failures and other problems would be much too common if things were not up to par. IMO.

 

[MolaKule]

Quote:
The point is knowing HOW to check and what to look for!


I am sure we chemists know HOW to check and WHAT to look for, since we have some very interesting analytical techniques, which you undoubtedly haven't a clue about.

 

[buster]

Quote:
Many national brands are blended and packaged at
different contracted oil companies around the country.
They depend on someone else to do their quality control.
Bottles of motor oil with the same brand name purchased
on opposite ends of the country had different chemical
properties and were even visibly a different color. These
oils could not be expected to perform the same. The
only thing similar is the label.

 

[kd5byb]

I'd love to see viscosity numbers on this fluid. From what I've ascertained from Toyota WS VOA's here and the various "multi-vehicle" fluid data sheets, no one yet duplicates the viscosity numbers of factory Toyota WS - they are too thick when cold and are too thick when hot. (Note - my only auto transmission is a WS transmission, so I know nothing of Dex VI, Mercon SP, or other thinner than Dex II fluids, nor do I really care.)

VOA - WS was 25.0/6.0 cSt at 40 deg C/100 deg C.

As a comparison, Chevron Multi-Vehicle is 37.6/8.4 cSt. Redline D6 is 30.7/6.4. Amsoil ATF 32.4/6.8 cSt, which seems closer to the WS VOA than the Chevron fluid, yet Amsoil makes no claims that ATF can be used in a WS transmission! Sure, the VOA is a sample of one, the difference in viscosity may make no difference in the transmission, et cetera.

Bottom line, I really have a hard time believing that these multi-application fluids can be so multi-application. It seems like manufacturers are slapping on the "okay for WS" note without doing the requisite homework. I've got to give credit to Amsoil FOR NOT slapping on the "okay for WS" note as it seems that others are doing. I take that as a real sign of trustworthiness on Amsoil's part. It would be real easy for them to slap on the "okay for WS" note onto ATF, yet they've not done it.

Very interesting. I look forward to more technical discussion on these new lightweight ATF's and suitable non-OEM replacement fluids. But, for now, I'll be sticking with OEM Toyota WS...

later,
b

 

[MolaKule]

Quote:
no one yet duplicates the viscosity numbers of factory Toyota WS


Looks like DexronVI viscosity.

There's more to ATF fluids than viscosity alone.

 

[Whitewolf]

I wouldn't bet on that.

 

[kd5byb]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
There's more to fluids than viscosity alone.

Completely agree. It seems to me if the multi-vehicle fluids can't duplicate (or at least come close to) WS viscosity, there is little chance that they will duplicate (or come close to) the other critical parameters.

Thoughts on this? Is it possible that a multi-vehicle fluid would meet the other parameters yet not be close on viscosity?

later,
b

 

[Whitewolf]

Quote:
I am sure we chemists know HOW to check and WHAT to look for, since we have some very interesting analytical techniques, which you undoubtedly haven't a clue about.


I wonder why it's not a shock that you think that about yourself?

 

[kd5byb]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Looks like DexronVI viscosity.

There's more to ATF fluids than viscosity alone.


Rats - I replied before your edit adding the first line. I've not done a lot of comparisons between WS and DexVI viscosity, but from the few I just pulled up, WS is close to DexVI on viscosity.

Now this begs the question - how close need viscosity be to give good, factory-like shift performance?

 

[Whitewolf]

1/ Because it's an attempt to copy the original, what is now known as DEXRON-VI, fluid concept.
2/ In a modern ATF the friction performance is not really a viscosity issue.

 

[Gary Allan]

SPC (statistical process control) and ISO verification/certification/validation techniques are well refined after 20+ years. I'm sure that most of the "windows of vulnerability" have been bricked shut.