Wow..... What a finish! Part Two

[Garak]

I'm not creative; I had to steal JPP's title. Besides, I thought he was talking about the Malaysian GP's finish.

Now, that was a finish. All I say to Mark Webber is that next race, he's going to do his usual start. That is, he's going to start like a flummoxed teen who's trying to take off from the green light in third instead of first, and lose five places in about six seconds.

Get over it. IRB got first and second. Obviously, Mark Webber is quite capable of qualifying very high and racing excellent laps. They'd have a lot more 1-2 finishes if he didn't botch 50% of his starts. Don't blame Sebastian for grabbing the points. We know he will make use of them. Yes, Seb will be protected as usual. Drivers who have three consecutive championships on a team with three consecutive constructor championships do tend to be protected. Mark is an integral part of the team, but shouldn't be drinking Helmut Marko's Kool Aid. There is a number one driver for IRB, whether he wants to admit it or not, and it's not him. And Seb isn't a "peddlar." He's no PR dummy. Have your arguments in private. Sebastian did what he was paid to do - win races and bring the car home. The championships came in no small part due to his drive to win. You take the good with the bad in that. FIA's rules don't require team permission to pass a team mate. Get over it.

As a side note, kudos to Lewis Hamilton. I generally dislike the guy, but he demonstrated a lot of humility and grace after the race. As someone else mentioned elsewhere, all I can say is he's lucky that it wasn't Kimi who was his team mate and behind him and wanting to pass. That would have made for some really interesting radio transmissions.

 

[CMMeadAM]

I'm not creative; I had to steal JPP's title. Besides, I thought he was talking about the Malaysian GP's finish.

Now, that was a finish. All I say to Mark Webber is that next race, he's going to do his usual start. That is, he's going to start like a flummoxed teen who's trying to take off from the green light in third instead of first, and lose five places in about six seconds.

Get over it. IRB got first and second. Obviously, Mark Webber is quite capable of qualifying very high and racing excellent laps. They'd have a lot more 1-2 finishes if he didn't botch 50% of his starts. Don't blame Sebastian for grabbing the points. We know he will make use of them. Yes, Seb will be protected as usual. Drivers who have three consecutive championships on a team with three consecutive constructor championships do tend to be protected. Mark is an integral part of the team, but shouldn't be drinking Helmut Marko's Kool Aid. There is a number one driver for IRB, whether he wants to admit it or not, and it's not him. And Seb isn't a "peddlar." He's no PR dummy. Have your arguments in private. Sebastian did what he was paid to do - win races and bring the car home. The championships came in no small part due to his drive to win. You take the good with the bad in that. FIA's rules don't require team permission to pass a team mate. Get over it.

As a side note, kudos to Lewis Hamilton. I generally dislike the guy, but he demonstrated a lot of humility and grace after the race. As someone else mention, all I can say is he's lucky that it wasn't Kimi who was his team mate and behind him and wanting to pass. That would have made for some really interesting radio transmissions.




The "Number 1" driver, Vettel, was directly under team orders NOT to pass Weber. He defied TEAM orders to back off and let his Red Bull teammate take the checkered flag ahead of him. He behaved like an immature juvenile and has contributed to bad blood on the "team" and much recrimination.

From the immature little boy Vettel's own mouth......." This is not a victory that I'm very proud of because it should have been Mark's........I owe an explanation to him and the whole team.....i got the call and I IGNORED IT. i put myself above a TEAM decision which I was wrong. I didn't mean to and I apologize. I'm not happy I've won."

As in all things....ACTIONS speak louder than words. After the fact, his words mean very little to Weber.......or the entire team. Champion Nincompoop !

 

[Bottom_Feeder]

You're missing the point, Garak.

Webber had the pace to race with and probably beat Vettel yesterday IF THEY WERE ALLOWED TO but they risked taking each other out of the race while leading it 1-2. Red Bull Racing would not allow that since a TEAM result of 1-2 is their first priority. They have an agreement in place when they are in this situation, their race is essentially over after the last round of pit stops. Whoever is in front, stays in front. It was more critical at this race since the tires were eating themselves and they weren't sure if the last sets they were running on would last to the end of the race, and battling each other for position would pretty much ensure that they wouldn't (Mercedes was in the same boat, plus fuel issues). Webber came out of the pits ahead of Vettel, and that should have been it, but Vettel was racing for himself yesterday and decided to pass Webber and take the win even though Webber was doing exactly what the team told him: turn down the engine and preserve the tires.

Make no mistake, Vettel beat Webber by 6-7 seconds yesterday simply because WEBBER WASN'T RACING HIM. He was following team orders doing exactly what they asked of him and the reward for doing so was going to be the race win, but Vettel had other ideas. Webber resisted briefly but eventually just let the Golden Boy run off into the distance and make his dicision look even worse.

Vettel's lack of understanding team tactics when they don't benefit him was also on full display earlier in the race when he was complaining that Webber was 'too slow' and that they should order him out of Vettel's way. Strange that Webber was doing lap times .2-.5 faster than Vettel at the time.

I was never a Vettel fan and this race makes me dislike him even more. I'd rather see guys like Webber, Button and Massa win any day.

 

[bourne]

Originally Posted By: Bottom_Feeder
You're missing the point, Garak.

Webber had the pace to race with and probably beat Vettel yesterday IF THEY WERE ALLOWED TO but they risked taking each other out of the race while leading it 1-2. Red Bull Racing would not allow that since a TEAM result of 1-2 is their first priority. They have an agreement in place when they are in this situation, their race is essentially over after the last round of pit stops. Whoever is in front, stays in front. It was more critical at this race since the tires were eating themselves and they weren't sure if the last sets they were running on would last to the end of the race, and battling each other for position would pretty much ensure that they wouldn't (Mercedes was in the same boat, plus fuel issues). Webber came out of the pits ahead of Vettel, and that should have been it, but Vettel was racing for himself yesterday and decided to pass Webber and take the win even though Webber was doing exactly what the team told him: turn down the engine and preserve the tires.

Make no mistake, Vettel beat Webber by 6-7 seconds yesterday simply because WEBBER WASN'T RACING HIM. He was following team orders doing exactly what they asked of him and the reward for doing so was going to be the race win, but Vettel had other ideas. Webber resisted briefly but eventually just let the Golden Boy run off into the distance and make his dicision look even worse.

Vettel's lack of understanding team tactics when they don't benefit him was also on full display earlier in the race when he was complaining that Webber was 'too slow' and that they should order him out of Vettel's way. Strange that Webber was doing lap times .2-.5 faster than Vettel at the time.

I was never a Vettel fan and this race makes me dislike him even more. I'd rather see guys like Webber, Button and Massa win any day.



See I was gonna make a post but then .............





+1

 

[Garak]

I do agree with both your guys' points about the team aspect. A 1-2 finish is as good as it gets for the team, regardless of whether it were Vettel-Webber or Webber-Vettel. Nonetheless, I'm going pretty easy on Vettel in this case, and I admit that. Obviously it's very early in the season, but on the balance of probabilities, Vettel will be a championship contender. I have every confidence that Webber will do very well this year, but will not be a championship contender.

So, I can understand that Vettel will be a bit ruthless. And, I appreciate that as opposed to a predetermined conclusion. That's not to downplay Webber's abilities or contribution. There would have been no constructor's championships without Webber's contributions, and believe it or not, I am a Webber fan.

Speaking of Marko's comment about no clear number one driver compared to Mercedes, it would have been interesting to see what would have happened if Hamilton's pit stop snafu resulted in him losing a bit more time to Rosberg and being a tad behind him. What would the orders have been then? After all, Hamilton is a contender, though we cannot sneeze at Nico, either.

More broadly, it did add to the excitement of the race, without bringing in nonsense like helmet tossing.

I do, however, disapprove of the obvious bad feelings that came about in this situation. However, if Sebastian were to win the title by about 7 points this year, he will be vindicated, unless, of course, it happens to be Mark Webber who comes in second. Then, look for the fur to fly.

In any event, yes, there are agreements, but bad feelings in both the top teams were pretty much inevitable. Had Sebastian held back, he obviously would have been unhappy about it, even though he were following the agreed practice. Obviously, Nico wasn't too impressed either, though he did follow the directive. Fortunately, Hamilton did the PR save there when interviewed on the podium, and hopefully Nico understands and appreciates that.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Bottom_Feeder
Vettel's lack of understanding team tactics when they don't benefit him was also on full display earlier in the race when he was complaining that Webber was 'too slow' and that they should order him out of Vettel's way. Strange that Webber was doing lap times .2-.5 faster than Vettel at the time.

Even I thought that was a little odd. My view at that moment was if you want Webber out of your way, the most direct approach would be to improve your lap times. At least Nico's complaints were timed as to when he actually was being held back, not falling back.

 

[Bottom_Feeder]

Yeah. I know there is a delay when driver's radios are broadcast, but when Vettel was complaining, he was not anywhere close to being in a position to get around Webber. He really should have been all over him first before he moaned to the team. But then again, Webber was doing what the team asked and was saving the car. I guess Vettel didn't get the memo.

I do somewhat agree that if Hamilton was in that bad shape with fuel that Mercedes should have asked him to allow Rosberg by, but Ross Brawn is a smart guy and he probably (rightfully) assumed Rosberg would have gone after Webber and put himself in trouble with fuel and probably tires. It was best for Mercedes to keep him behind and that's really all that matters.

 

[Garak]

Yep, even with any delays, he was far enough back. Perhaps he should have asked Mercedes to keep out of his way at the same time.

I'm not certain with the Hamilton fuel issue either. We know that Hamilton was told to conserve fuel for a reason. We don't know if Nico was in a similar condition, a bit better, or a lot better off.

Of course, both teams' situations highlight that we don't get the whole story from selected team radio transmissions. The impression we got was that Nico didn't know that Lewis was told to turn the fuel down until the transmission was broadcast. He griped a few times, and then that was it.

We get the impression that Vettel knew more about his situation with his team mate than Nico did with his, but chose to ignore it anyhow, or at least claimed selective hearing. Well, it's a competitive sport and we have to consider it a hybrid of an individual sport and a team sport. It's not like hockey where you have an enforcer doing his job only at very select, measured times; such a player cannot obviously go out and do what he does best every time he's on the ice lest he seriously damages the team's chances. Racers want to win. Vettel didn't get his record by playing second fiddle or rolling over when things got tough.

He's obviously learned one lesson over the years, and demonstrated it in fine form this weekend: It's easier to ask for forgiveness than it is to obtain permission.

 

[Bottom_Feeder]

Originally Posted By: Garak
He's obviously learned one lesson over the years, and demonstrated it in fine form this weekend: It's easier to ask for forgiveness than it is to obtain permission.

Wow, does that ever fit the situation perfectly here.

 

[Garak]

Yep. He shouldn't have even bothered with trying to obtain permission. Plausible deniability is hard to maintain if you actually ask for permission. A better tactic would have been to not ask in the first place (especially at that inopportune time), stay off the radio altogether, win the race, and then claim the radio was broken. Sure, it might have been a fishy story, but it would have been better than what happened.

 

[LineArrayNut]

At first I was like a Lewis fanboy. But Ron Dennis has enough arrogance to kill ANY enthusiasm.
So when he went for the money at Merc, I thought there goes the hope of ever winning a race or vying for a points championship. Now Lewis looks like a genius with Merc at 37 pts and McLaren at 4!
Team orders are allowed now by rule and always were implemented. Marc and wonderboy took each out previously with no points and two destroyed chassis.
The punk disobeyed the wall. No driver should ever think that he's able to disobey the wall.
Look what happened to Alonso, although the team pulled together and allowed him to say it was a team decision even though the mechanics were in the lane with a new nose, something they NEVER do unless the pitstop was imminent.
Mark would easily have been able to hold him off, but for a banzai move, two engines and trans off schedule for replacement, tires worn out and maybe a threat from another car, running out of fuel, wadded up cars etc. Thus the order from the wall. No, Mark is no threat to win the championship, no more than Nico can hope to beat Lewis in a fair fight. But the wall is the law, and wonderboy is protected. Too bad Mark can't do a Logano to him, lol! Hamlin will think twice about dumping people now.

 

[Garak]

Hamilton's performance this season really has impressed me, and his attitude Sunday was really gracious. I didn't think he'd be where he's at right now, performance wise, but I've certainly been proven wrong.

As for Sebastian, John Watson thinks he should be suspended for a race. Well, the odds are that Sebastian will grab some points if he races in China. Does IRB want to sacrifice those points? I don't mean to pick on anyone in specific intentionally, but if you bench Charles Pic for a race, that's not going to cost the team any points. Sideline Vettel, and you have to balance the fact that you WILL be sacrificing some points versus maintaining team discipline.

And that's the reality of the situation. You take the good with the bad. Vettel will earn the team points, and plenty of them, on almost every outing. But, he obviously doesn't like to roll over and will do what's necessary to maximize the points. Vettel wants to race 21 cars, not 20. Besides, it was more interesting than watching the apparent four car parade over the last few laps.

They can replace Vettel with me. I'll work for a fraction of the money, and I'll follow every order to the letter. I guarantee you, though, they'll probably never see me complete a lap, let alone a race, without a retirement, plus they can kiss the chance of ever earning another point again goodbye.

I agree with your take on the Alonso incident. If they decided to leave him out (as the current stories state) and are taking the blame for him, why have the pit crew ready to do the replacement? It was a bad choice not to replace the nose, but I do understand that he would have preferred to get one more lap before pitting so he could switch to slicks and change the nose, but it bit him in the rear end. Such is life. If he did ignore a request to stop for the nose change, well, that's another example of what can go wrong when you disobey.

 

[Bill888]

Another great race for many reasons. The incidents we witnessed during and after this race makes me wonder if the top tier of drivers, wealthy and powerful as they are, have now risen to a position of equal power with team management. The new mentality seems to be to do whatever it takes to win the race (and add to your personal points) and deal with the PR aftermath as needed. One of the reasons I've been an F1 fan since the 60's is the enjoyment of watching the most competitive drivers in the world however I think that team orders now seem to be team suggestions or requests.
JMO
Bill

 

[Garak]

Well, Webber mentioned protection, and I'm sure he's right. A winning driver will be able to get away with more than someone who consistently rounds out the bottom.