Wind Power

[crinkles]

Originally Posted By: Pat in Speedway
There was an article just yesterday about a wind farm going up 90-some miles northwest of Indianapolis in Benton County, Indiana. On a trip a few years ago, I stumbled upon a farm in Gray County, Kansas. First time I'd seen anything of that magnitude and was quite impressive.

Indy's power supplier gives customers an option to have their energy generated by "green" sources such as wind at an increased rate, which amounts to just a few dollars a month for the average household: Green Power Option


our supplier has the same thing. for $6 a week above my usual power bill we get 17.5 kW.hr per day in green power (and indirect), while we've been using 21 kW.hr per day.

i'm a bit ashamed of how much power we use so i've been trying to cut back, but it seems if we eliminate the dryer we would be ok to the 17.5 kW.hr and to make use of 100% green power. BUT, it rains a lot here and is very humid so that's not really an option.

 

[Al]

Looks like Corzine is looking at building 200 windmills off the Jersey Coast. Knowing how NJ works though we may not see it in our lifetime. I love the idea though.

 

[Gary Allan]

Why off the coast? There's plenty of spinach farms and orchards that should not be too disrupted (in use or "view") by a few thousand windmills.


..or has suburban sprawl made this impossible too?

 

[moribundman]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Why off the coast?


Convection near the shore. It's why I refuse to live anywhere but near a large body of water.

 

[Gary Allan]

Sure you'll get the ebb and flow of the exchange between land/sea winds ..but that doesn't stop wind from existing else where on a virtual flood plane ...or any plane

(yes, mori, there will be places that give more yield - but do you think that they'll give up on one oil well over another just because it doesn't produce as much? Any windmill that produces more than its avoided costs is a good one)

 

[moribundman]

I think the choice to build over water may to a degree be a NIMBY thing.

I'm all in favor of turning Texas into one giant wind farm, interspersed with fast breeders. The Texans may not like it, tho'! How about North Dakota then?

 

[Gary Allan]

I think our NIMBY crowd are going to be run out on rails when the true weight of energy dependency shows its ugly head. I think they'll be trumped by the economic realities.

It's funny how people's "principles" degrade when something has them by the short hairs. They're hearts and minds tend to follow the yanker.

I'm personally going to propose a trash to steam plant in our under utilized industrial park. It could draw water directly from the waste treatment plant and be responsible for its discharge quality before returning it. It could power the water distribution as well and they can take in as much trash from as far and wide as they can handle as long as they ....make Pottstown TAX FREE (that's ALL TAXES school/muni/etc) ..and conform to some EPA/DEP standard of emissions.

 

[oilyriser]

If you want to put up a wind farm, first tell the town you want to start a pig farm. Then when they get all upset, downgrade to a cattle feedlot. When they reallize it's still gonna stink, toss out the suggestion of a wind farm.

 

[Gary Allan]

Speaking of NIMBY's. Township a few down had lots of development. Nice mid-upper scale kind. Pig farm had been there for 40 years. Next thing you know there's a bunch of complaints due to the odor.

 

[H2GURU]

There has been a wind project in the planning stage for over 5 years off the coast of Cape Cod here in MA., but the Kennedys keep getting it squashed. The only way wind power can move forward is by shutting off the electricity for a few days... that'll get someone's attetion. Chicago is known as the " windy city" but Boston acctually has higher wind rates. You will ocaisionally see a lone windmill on hills up in the north country, probably done by a well-off person trying to do some good?? I'm a big fan of capturing all of the potential power from Tidal Movement also.

 

[Gary Allan]

Cuttyhunk could sure use a windfarm. The Forbes, that own the mirror image Nashuina (spl - separated by a tidal basin) would probably manage to block that. It would interfere with their summer sheep shearing ritual. They have a large diesel running 24/7 on Cuttyhunk to provide power. Lots of waste there. I doubt Marta's Vineyard would get anything going due to too many who can afford the ante there.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: Al
Looks like Corzine is looking at building 200 windmills off the Jersey Coast. Knowing how NJ works though we may not see it in our lifetime. I love the idea though.


There already are some by Atlantic City. NJ utility customers can choose to buy a percentage of their usage from these windmills.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
I don't care if they litter the horizon. Show me the avoided cost!!

Now, knowing how our system works ..I'm waiting for some person to tell us that we need to finance this expansion of wind power ..and that eventually we'll all be down to pure maintenance costs and plugging in for next to nothing. That's what Dwight told us about nukes. He was sorta right in his imagination. Like Han said when Luke said the reward would be more than he could imagine, "I can imagine quite a bit" (in terms of what constitutes "maintenance costs").



Right, I love wind and solar, but companies owning them arent going to give anything for free. After covering the capital cost, theyll want additional dollars to cover their contribution. I can see that there might be a few cents per kilowatt hour fee to cover this (above conventional blah blah), thing is, afer the windmills are paid off, you have a free feedstock of energy, but yet I bet theyll keep the rates higher.

The whole setup of requiring people/businesses to buy green energy, and sell green energy and credits on the open market forces this.

And lets not forget, forced green energy, coupled with free energy souces and higher rates will not be enough, so then maintenance costs will be levied, driving it up more.

I foresee such power production as something that has tobe regulated or controlled, else the value will not be there, and consumers will really be taken for a ride...

And folks think that group III synthetic oil at $5/qt is bad... just wait until the turbines are paid off and the utilities are charging same old prices for free energy...

JMH

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
I foresee such power production as something that has tobe regulated or controlled, else the value will not be there, and consumers will really be taken for a ride...


Current distribution monopolies assure that we'll never NOT be taken for a ride. That's the ultimate choke point. You can produce it for nothing in any amount and in any location you please, but the magic fairy of increased costs are only a Public Utility Commission approval away. You can create any expenses you please ..and still generate a 12% ROI.

 

[eljefino]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2


And folks think that group III synthetic oil at $5/qt is bad... just wait until the turbines are paid off and the utilities are charging same old prices for free energy...

JMH


This is why I don't have Cable TV...

Supposedly the big expense in the early years was amortizing the cost of stringing all that cable...

 

[oilyriser]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
You can produce it for nothing in any amount and in any location you please



Please show me how to do that.

 

[Al]

Quote:

Current distribution monopolies assure that we'll never NOT be taken for a ride.

Its really the opposite. The partial deregulation era brought requirements for utilities to allow NUGs (NON Utility Generators) access to existing distribution systems. That plus the PUC's political activism became slanted to force utilities cut costs at any price. The only way to do it was for utilities to curtail services, allow ancient distribution systems to hang around, etc.

If you worked in the Utility Sector all your life as I did. It was a coming Freight train and you couldn't get off the track. And remember this whole phenomenon started in Cali..where all good ideas emanate.

 

[Gary Allan]

Well, Al ...I'm sorry ..but you need to move to PECO country to see the most convoluted deregulation on the planet.

I venture to say that you probably pay between $0.07-$0.11/kwh ..and I pay $0.18/kwh ..and I can save less than 10% going to an outside producer with over a 50% reduction in power costs ($/kwh).

How can this be, Al?

 

[Gary Allan]

Originally Posted By: oilyriser
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
You can produce it for nothing in any amount and in any location you please



Please show me how to do that.


Okay, I'll change it to "you may".

 

[oilyriser]

At 18 cents, a 500 kw wind turbine might be economical, if you have lots of land and can sell all your surplus to a nearby factory at a couple cents less than they are paying now.