Will VR1 kill the Cat in my '87 911?

[seafood]

Hey thanks for helping,
I have an air cooled 1987 911 which has flat tappet's and needs zinc for protection but have been told that zinc will
hurt/kill the Cat over time so it seems like a catch 22. I believe that zinc has been replaced with other wear protection ingredients but am still
not sure what oil to use.
Valvoline VR1 apparently has 13% zinc which is great for the tappet protection but is it bad for the Cat, I wonder what the zinc levels were back in the 80's when these cars were made. I don't know what the original owner used but the car passed smog with flying colors here in CA so if the oil back then had higher zinc levels it apparently didn't harm the Cat.

Also, the Cat's are NLA as CA requires so much of the pricey metals in them that there wasn't enough demand for third party's to produce them and while there are universal Cat's that are approved, you need both ends from an original Cat as they are not an 'in line' Cat like most of the cars

Anyway, just wondering what your feedback would be and really appreciate any help!

 

[drtyler]

have you priced an engine rebuild on a 3.2?

Use the VR1 or another high zddp oil and enjoy the drive.

If your car doesn’t use or burn much oil, the cats won’t get the zinc & phos.

 

[Brian123]

Old Wives Tale with the Zinc thing, 2 a certain extent, if your car is not burning oil you do not have any problems. The Zinc levels back in the 1980's could probably be around 1500, that is a guess.

I would look at a VOA of Valvoline VRI 2 c how much Zinc it has, or if I cannot find 1 here, send a sample off 2 c what the Zinc level is.

I did find a VOA of this oil, but it was an old VOA!

 

[seafood]

have you priced an engine rebuild on a 3.2?

Use the VR1 or another high zddp oil and enjoy the drive.

If your car doesn’t use or burn much oil, the cats won’t get the zinc & phos.

I know Exactly what it costs for a rebuild as I actually have 3 80's 911's and just had the engine rebuilt for my 88 930 Turbo factory Slant Nose.

 

[JavierH19]

The damage only happens if the oil gets burned, how much oil does your engine consume.

 

[seafood]

Old Wives Tale with the Zinc thing, 2 a certain extent, if your car is not burning oil you do not have any problems. The Zinc levels back in the 1980's could probably be around 1500, that is a guess.

I would look at a VOA of Valvoline VRI 2 c how much Zinc it has, or if I cannot find 1 here, send a sample off 2 c what the Zinc level is.

I did find a VOA of this oil, but it was an old VOA!

That's kinda what I was thinking as back in the 80's there was more zinc in the oil, now replaced with other additives.

 

[seafood]

The damage only happens if the oil gets burned, how much oil does your engine consume.

Not a lot, I've done leak downs on all 3 and they are no more than 6% so it should be OK but want to make sure as like I said CA is soooo strict!

 

[Brian123]

That's kinda what I was thinking as back in the 80's there was more zinc in the oil, now replaced with other additives.

You might want to either call the Amsoil Technical Line or maybe the guys at HPL, they would be able to guide you! The Zinc thing is a touchy subject, and a phone call might get you the answer you need 2 here.

 

[drtyler]

I know Exactly what it costs for a rebuild as I actually have 3 80's 911's and just had the engine rebuilt for my 88 930 Turbo factory Slant Nose.

That’s why I say don’t skimp on the oil. Seems most of the aircooled engine shops recommend the higher zddp oils as well. Some of them claim to have been burned by the switchover to lower zddp oils a while back and/or they have seen the results of using them.

But I do understand your situation with the catalytic converters. Sounds like this car isn’t really using much oil, so you should be ok.

There are additive chemistries that allow for lower zddp use while maintaining the lower wear on older engines.

 

[seafood]

That’s why I say don’t skimp on the oil. Seems most of the aircooled engine shops recommend the higher zddp oils as well. Some of them claim to have been burned by the switchover to lower zddp oils a while back and/or they have seen the results of using them.

But I do understand your situation with the catalytic converters. Sounds like this car isn’t really using much oil, so you should be ok.

There are additive chemistries that allow for lower zddp use while maintaining the lower wear on older engines.

Yup, these flat tappet's need that zinc protection!
After sitting for a few years I just put the engine back in my '84 911 this weekend with VR1 dino to make sure it runs OK while I completely restore the interior and I can actually hear (or not hear) the reduction of noise from the valves, a big difference from my other 911's that aren't running VR1. The lack of a water jacket really helps with hearing all the different noises.

After noticing the noise reduction with the VR1 I came here looking for help regarding the zinc and Cat issue. It's crazy as I remember reading info from BITOG what seems like 20 years ago when I was on diesel forums regarding my 2001 Dodge Cummins looking for info, had no idea he blew up this big.
.

 

[wings&wheels]

I would not worry about the cats unless you have a real oil burning problem. Even if you did, if it were my car I'd still run a higher ZDDP level oil and take the risk.

Why not a synthetic? Porsche is recommending 10w-60 now for the older air coolers, your I believe, and while I am not saying to use their oil, there are others out there. I use Redline 10-60 in our low mileage 993.

Pics of the Flachbau please...actually pics of all of them!

 

[seafood]

I would not worry about the cats unless you have a real oil burning problem. Even if you did, if it were my car I'd still run a higher ZDDP level oil and take the risk.

Why not a synthetic? Porsche is recommending 10w-60 now for the older air coolers, your I believe, and while I am not saying to use their oil, there are others out there. I use Redline 10-60 in our low mileage 993.

Pics of the Flachbau please...actually pics of all of them!

I was thinking of trying VR1 synthetic 20-50. Also Motul has Classic Performance 20-50 dino which is supposed to be good but I want a synthetic for the turbo and wanted an opinion from guys that really focus on oil rather than the 911 boards.
Here are a few pics I quickly grabbed from my phone, you can see the 87 in the background.

It really helps that I am about 10 minutes from Pelican Parts as I do a lot of will calls.....

 

[Jetronic]

Hey thanks for helping,
I have an air cooled 1987 911 which has flat tappet's and needs zinc for protection but have been told that zinc will
hurt/kill the Cat over time so it seems like a catch 22. I believe that zinc has been replaced with other wear protection ingredients but am still
not sure what oil to use.
Valvoline VR1 apparently has 13% zinc which is great for the tappet protection but is it bad for the Cat, I wonder what the zinc levels were back in the 80's when these cars were made. I don't know what the original owner used but the car passed smog with flying colors here in CA so if the oil back then had higher zinc levels it apparently didn't harm the Cat.

Also, the Cat's are NLA as CA requires so much of the pricey metals in them that there wasn't enough demand for third party's to produce them and while there are universal Cat's that are approved, you need both ends from an original Cat as they are not an 'in line' Cat like most of the cars

Anyway, just wondering what your feedback would be and really appreciate any help!

That would be 0.13% zinc or 1,300 parts per million. 13% would be 130,000 ppm.

How much oil is getting burned? it's only if oil gets burned that Phosphor (it's the real harmful part in zddp) content can become an issue. I have never seen phosphor poisoning an issue in any car that was otherwise healthy. It's pretty far down on the list of things that kill cats in real life.

 

[eljefino]

This could be a problem after another 100k miles... how much do you drive?

They ratcheted it down from like 1200 to 800 ppm, not really an order of magnitude. So if your engine burns 1/3 less than average it's a wash anyway.

 

[930.engineering]

Valvoline VR1 apparently has 13% zinc

As mentioned 13 'promille' or ~1300 ppm (parts per million).

have been told that zinc will hurt/kill the Cat over time

Again as mentioned above the phosphorus (ZDDP) is what poisons most the cat IF this engine burns oil.

I wonder what the zinc levels were back in the 80's when these cars were made.

Above 1300 ppm, but not excessively more.

I don't know what the original owner used but the car passed smog with flying colors here in CA so if the oil back then had higher zinc levels it apparently didn't harm the Cat.

So it's a non issue.

Why not a synthetic? Porsche is recommending 10w-60 now for the older air coolers, your I believe, and while I am not saying to use their oil, there are others out there. I use Redline 10-60 in our low mileage 993.

My own 930 came with Shell TMO 10W-30 from the factory. I do run Ravenol
RCS 5W-40 currently and I don't think it doesn't really require a heavy 10W-60.
I'd bet it would run with a vanilla 5W-30 fine. Who knows.

How much oil is getting burned?

Many 'Mezger' (aircooled flat six) engines suffer from losing oil more than burn it.
However, I too would love to read a number. How much oil per 1000 mls?
.

 

[kschachn]

As mentioned 13 'promille' or ~1300 ppm (parts per million).




Again as mentioned above the phosphorus (ZDDP) is what poisons most the cat IF this engine burns oil.




Above 1300 ppm, but not excessively more.




So it's a non issue.




My own 930 came with Shell TMO 10W-30 from the factory. I do run Ravenol
RCS 5W-40 currently and I don't think it doesn't really require a heavy 10W-60.
I'd bet it would run with a vanilla 5W-30 fine. Who knows.




Many 'Mezger' (aircooled flat six) engines suffer from losing oil more than burn it.
However, I too would love to read a number. How much oil per 1000 mls?
.

Thanks for the sanity.

 

[oliver88]

I our older air cooled 911's we run Liquid Moly 10w60 or Redline 10w60. VR1 20w50 was great too but we've since moved to using a 10w60. Less consumption with the 10w60 in both cars. My 1987 3.2 was rebuilt about 10 years ago as I was using it for DE and wanted a bit more "go"...we opened the motor when it had about 50,000 miles on it and it was very nice inside ! The 3.6 has never been rebuilt and has about 25,000 miles on it but it is a race motor in a 1991 Carrera Cup car.

 

[drtyler]

I don't blame you for wanting to use synthetic.

In addition to VR1 Synthetic 20W-50, there is also Driven 15W-50:

Driven DT50 15W-50 Synthetic Street Performance Oil

Driven DT50 15W-50 Synthetic Street Performance Oil

drivenracingoil.com

Mobil 1 15W-50 is probably the value leader for synthetics. It contains 1200ppm phosphorus & 1300ppm zinc.

I talked with HPL a while back about what to use in an aircooled 911, and they recommended the use of their 15W-40 CK4 HDEO.

Good luck, lots of good options.

I was thinking of trying VR1 synthetic 20-50. Also Motul has Classic Performance 20-50 dino which is supposed to be good but I want a synthetic for the turbo and wanted an opinion from guys that really focus on oil rather than the 911 boards.
Here are a few pics I quickly grabbed from my phone, you can see the 87 in the background.

It really helps that I am about 10 minutes from Pelican Parts as I do a lot of will calls.....

 

[Jetronic]

Many 'Mezger' (aircooled flat six) engines suffer from losing oil more than burn it.
However, I too would love to read a number. How much oil per 1000 mls?
.

That's why I said "burn" as it's indeed not the same as how much do you have to add. Though I think his engines are pretty well kept

 

[930.engineering]

.
Of course and/but it's rather hard to determine which is which.
.