Will the chemistry of low visc oils catch up to physical properties of thicker ones

[Cujet]

Originally Posted by PimTac


It could be argued that using a higher viscosity oil just masked the underlying problem, just like putting in a thicker grade of oil to mask valve clatter on a older car before selling it.



It is true that one the problem starts, a higher viscosity oil will greatly reduce the noise when cold. The local Ford dealership was using M1, 10W-40 HM in older vehicles with the phaser knock with good results.

However, the internal wear (scoring, wear, battering and eventual oil bypass past the internal vanes) that occurs is due to both particulates and low viscosity. The use of a higher viscosity and more frequent changes eliminates the rapid wear, and the rapid failure. Clearly there is quite a bit of force on the parts.

The very same goes for timing and balancer chains. It's long been known that chains last longer with a minimum of a 30 viscosity oil. You won't find many industrial chains operating in uber low viscosity oils. Chains require good lubricant film strength.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted by turtlevette
I think you really have to break down what's happening to the microscopic level. I don't believe hydrodynamic action of a bearing is the same as the piston ring. Some people like shannow don't recognize that. It boils down to what you've been trained in.

The bearing creates a phenomenon where the shaft is trying to climb a wall or wave that's created by the curvature in the system. The ring against wall and or lifter on cam creates a bulldoze push effect, which in my opinion doesn't as readily create a hydrodynamic condition. Furthermore you have to look at how well the lubricant bonds or sticks to the metal avoiding a scrape off or shear off effect resulting in metal on metal. This is why zddp works so well. You have a true bond.

So no. I don't think it's as simple as just considering the viscosity.


At least one of us has been "trained" in mechanical engineering...you are attributing a failing in my understanding to your lack of understanding/training and making images in your head about "climbing" a wall or wave simply demonstrates that.

Lubricants "bonding or sticking" to the metal, and shearing off to create metal to metal contact ???

Please stop...

The rings, mid stroke aren't acting as mini bulldozers, they are operating in a hydrodynamic regime mid stroke and mixed/boundary towards the ends. They are looking at thermal barrier coatings on large diesels to increase the local surface temperature mid stroke (there's that viscosity/hydrodynamic thing again), while maintaining the viscosity in the bearings.

I know that this is someone elses work, from a paper that's not considered "fresh", but it ties in well with what Joe said about additive technology advances.

 

[turtlevette]

I believe there is more to it than simple viscosity. The way the molecules behave in the base oil and how that can enhance the hydrodynamic effect is a variable that you never consider.

That's ok. I've butted heads with guys like you my whole career. Why rack our brains on newfangled stuff when the horse and buggy works so well.

That chart is probably from 1950. How about comparing a 30w gr1 against a 0w20 gr4 or 5.

 

[dblshock]

it's a dynamic era with oil, engines and CAFE..I'm ignoring the specs for top lubrication til it all settles out.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted by turtlevette
I believe there is more to it than simple viscosity. The way the molecules behave in the base oil and how that can enhance the hydrodynamic effect is a variable that you never consider.

That's ok. I've butted heads with guys like you my whole career. Why rack our brains on newfangled stuff when the horse and buggy works so well.

That chart is probably from 1950. How about comparing a 30w gr1 against a 0w20 gr4 or 5.


There IS more to it than viscosity...show me once where I've stated that viscosity alone is the answer ?

"the way the molecules behave and how they can enhance the hydrodynamic effect"...see...again, you are just making junk up, in a field that you know nothing about, and passing it off as I'm a technical neandethal because I'm not using made up junk.

Maybe you butt heads because the people around you know that you are making stuff up...

 

[Shannow]

here's something "fresher" turtle...
https://www.researchgate.net/public...t_on_heavy_duty_diesel_engine_components

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted by Shannow
here's something "fresher" turtle...
https://www.researchgate.net/public...t_on_heavy_duty_diesel_engine_components


Quote
Conclusion:
The 500h engine test with low viscosity oil 10W-30 (versus 15w40) and extended drainage time engine was successfully concluded without concerns. Some wear increase was observed on the piston rings but the more resistant alternatives, showed lower wear with the low viscosity oil than the current part with the higher viscosity oil. Longer tests and analysis of other engine parts are recommended. On the tests components were the wear increase was higher, MAHLE has already alternatives showing lower wear with the low viscosity oil than the current one with the higher viscosity oil.

(PDF) Low viscosity oils impact on heavy duty diesel engine components. Available from: https://www.researchgate.net/public...t_on_heavy_duty_diesel_engine_components [accessed Sep 15 2018].


For those that won't bother reading this link.

Thanks for posting it.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted by StevieC
For those that won't bother reading this link.

Thanks for posting it.

No probs...
* the current design showed lower wear with the 15W40 than the 10W30 2.9 HTHS.
* by MODIFYING the parts and coatings, better wear than the current design with 15W40 was obtained.

Like I said earlier, they are changing things in response to the viscosity trend.

 

[Silk]

Originally Posted by Garak
I think what we have to look at, both from a fuel economy and a wear reduction standpoint, is the law of diminishing returns. There's only so much fuel economy to be had based upon reduction in friction and reducing pumping losses, and the chemistry can also go so far.


A far better way to combat the fuel economy issue is with reduced engine capacity...most of the world understands this, one major consumer doesn't. I commute on a 50cc scooter, I don't need 5 litres for such a small job.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted by SonofJoe
Silk,

You do realise that what you're saying will be seen by some of our more extreme BITOG brethren as dangerous heresy? Small engines will be seen as creeping Socialism! You'll be saying universal healthcare is a good thing next!!


It's funny that these threads keep popping up, wanting to validate that the OEMs are doing all of this for improvements in engine life and making the "asset" that will be thrown out long before it's worn out last longer. The fact that they (the OEMs) are making a justifiable trade-off seems to indicate that the US buyers feel that they are being emasculated...and thus the deep seated defensiveness around the topic.

 

[wemay]

Originally Posted by Shannow
Originally Posted by StevieC
For those that won't bother reading this link.

Thanks for posting it.

No probs...
* the current design showed lower wear with the 15W40 than the 10W30 2.9 HTHS.
* by MODIFYING the parts and coatings, better wear than the current design with 15W40 was obtained.

Like I said earlier, they are changing things in response to the viscosity trend.



Good morning all,

So unless a radical, unforeseen development occurs on the additive front, the real change is occuring in the hardware...

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted by Silk
A far better way to combat the fuel economy issue is with reduced engine capacity...most of the world understands this, one major consumer doesn't. I commute on a 50cc scooter, I don't need 5 litres for such a small job.

That is the elephant in the room, and behaviour and preferences aren't that easy to change. If North American drivers collectively decided tomorrow that they want cars 2000 to 3000 lbs lighter and they don't need a one ton dually to go to the grocery store or need a Suburban to drop one kid off at school, the part of the equation where diminishing returns hasn't been approached yet would come into light, and corporate average fuel economy would go through the roof.

And, I'm no better than the rest. Granted, in this climate, a 50 cc scooter is worse than useless 8 months out of the year. On the other hand, I also don't need a 330+ hp coupe running premium to putter on the freeway at the double nickel.

Don't get me started on Ford eliminating cars in North America, either, aside from the Mustang.

 

[bbhero]

Originally Posted by SonofJoe
Silk,

You do realise that what you're saying will be seen by some of our more extreme BITOG brethren as dangerous heresy? Small engines will be seen as creeping Socialism! You'll be saying universal healthcare is a good thing next!!



^^^^^^

True I have to say...

The weight or safety in those "smart" cars though is not really all that great... Second point of note... Is that many people in this country live quite a distance from work or other places like grocery stores, school etc.. this country is way, way bigger than yours. Third point is there are still a sizeable number of people who actually live where the extra room and power is needed and used on a daily basis.

I do think that for people living in the large urban centers of the US could be served quite well with a smaller motor/smaller vehicle. Especially when all they do is stay in those large urban centers.

I do not care for the big donkey whoomping sized SUVs and CUVs... But it is not my place to tell others what to drive.. And it should not be the govt job either to do so.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted by bbhero

I do not care for the big donkey whoomping sized SUVs and CUVs... But it is not my place to tell others what to drive.. And it should not be the govt job either to do so.


But as a result, they DO control that which they CAn control...thus CAFE.

Per wemay's original post, stating it is not hating it

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted by bbhero
But it is not my place to tell others what to drive.. And it should not be the govt job either to do so.

 

[bbhero]

Originally Posted by Shannow
Originally Posted by bbhero

I do not care for the big donkey whoomping sized SUVs and CUVs... But it is not my place to tell others what to drive.. And it should not be the govt job either to do so.


But as a result, they DO control that which they CAn control...thus CAFE.

Per wemay's original post, stating it is not hating it



Funny though... The cannot control what people actually put in those whoomping vehicles

If someone wanted 10w40 in the vehicle spced for 0w20... They can just do it themselves.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted by bbhero
Funny though... The cannot control what people actually put in those whoomping vehicles

If someone wanted 10w40 in the vehicle spced for 0w20... They can just do it themselves.


They can't...

However, what they are REQUIRED to do is to take every possible measure to ensure that the end user puts the oil that the vehicle was certified on into it at service time, including "unambiguous" manual wording, oil fill cap labelling, and in the case of recent Camrys "big yellow warning stickers"

 

[bbhero]

Originally Posted by Shannow
Originally Posted by bbhero
Funny though... The cannot control what people actually put in those whoomping vehicles

If someone wanted 10w40 in the vehicle spced for 0w20... They can just do it themselves.


They can't...

However, what they are REQUIRED to do is to take every possible measure to ensure that the end user puts the oil that the vehicle was certified on into it at service time, including "unambiguous" manual wording, oil fill cap labelling, and in the case of recent Camrys "big yellow warning stickers"


Still... Non of that ultimately matters.... Period. End of story...

If the owner who lives in Georgia says..." To heck with I'm going to put 10w30 in that Nissan".... They can. And we all know..... That Nissan won't blow up. As long as it is changed on a routine basis in line with vehicles manual.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted by bbhero
Still... Non of that ultimately matters.... Period. End of story...

OK

 

[bbhero]

Originally Posted by Shannow
Originally Posted by bbhero
Still... Non of that ultimately matters.... Period. End of story...

OK



It doesn't. Seriously. It does not.

Once the owner does what they want to do.... Even if it is not according to what is put on a yellow cap or in the manual... It really does not matter in those instances.


What the vehicle has in the crank case from the factory is the only time when they have 100% control.

After the vehicle is bought by the customer in a vast majority of instances here... They are in control of what can go in that motor. And some may well do something different than the 0w20....

That is exactly what I saying here. Nothing more. Nothing before it being bought..


I am not advocating doing this by the way... If I had a Nissan Maxima specd for 0w20... I'd get Mobil 1 Extended Performance 0w20 and put in it. And be happy to do just that.