Why Use Polyol Esters (POE) at 2% or any?

[fredfactory]

Why Use Polyol Esters (POE) at 2% or any? The "Esterex" is a POE (think Redline), added at the rate of 2% in a suggested oil mix.

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Mobil's blending "guide" has a 0W20 made from Spectrasyn 4 and 6, and a dash of VII and PPDs...

 

[Pontual]

Price? NOAK would be better if more was added and compensated.

 

[OVERKILL]

Additive solubility and seal compatibility.

 

[fredfactory]

And Mobil does mention their Esterex POE's "Esterex synthetic esters provide excellent additive solubility, thermal and oxidative stability, lubricity, biodegradability, low volatility, and good low temperature fluidity. " Just found that.

Its the lubricity and high-film strength (mentioned elsewhere) claims I'm trying to get a handle on, mostly.

If POE's are so good, why aren't we all using Redline? We know Redline to only give average UOAs as a PCMO.

 

[OVERKILL]

If you look up AN's on Mobil's site, you'll see why they recommend those over POE. Another product Mobil uses in their lubricants

This is, IMHO, one of the best things about Mobil. They make everything, so they have access to everything from their own manufacturing stream.

 

[Gilitar]

Where did you find this information?

 

[fredfactory]

Originally Posted By: Gilitar
Where did you find this information?
googled the terms: esterex esters mobil

 

[dave1251]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Additive solubility and seal compatibility.


I agree with this statement.

 

[OVERKILL]

This recent thread has some relevant info:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...-_m#Post3687983

 

[fredfactory]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Additive solubility and seal compatibility.

I can't find where Mobil says that. I see "Detergency and dispersancy, and
Lubricity" from Mobil. The lubricity part is the most interesting. I guess Redline can claim that out the wazoo, as much POE as they use, yet what does that do for us? Seems Redline is not regarded as better than other oils.

 

[dave1251]

Originally Posted By: fredfactory
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Additive solubility and seal compatibility.

I can't find where Mobil says that. I see "Detergency and dispersancy, and
Lubricity" from Mobil. The lubricity part is the most interesting. I guess Redline can claim that out the wazoo, as much POE as they use, yet what does that do for us? Seems Redline is not regarded as better than other oils.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/esters-in-synthetic-lubricants/

 

[Nate1979]

Originally Posted By: fredfactory
And Mobil does mention their Esterex POE's "Esterex synthetic esters provide excellent additive solubility, thermal and oxidative stability, lubricity, biodegradability, low volatility, and good low temperature fluidity. " Just found that.

Its the lubricity and high-film strength (mentioned elsewhere) claims I'm trying to get a handle on, mostly.

If POE's are so good, why aren't we all using Redline? We know Redline to only give average UOAs as a PCMO.



I'm sorry but why are you discussing such very technical details such as why POE is being added at 2% to the oil when you make a such a wrong statement such as this (in bold)? Can you share the database of UOA's (hopefully well over a 100) that you have used to make this statement and how you expect a UOA to compare to real world wear numbers?

 

[Rand]

Its not that redline is out of "favor" its more that its a niche product and expensive.

What does redline give you for 50$ that M1 EP doesnt at 27$.. esp. in a honda fit or 90% of cars.

Esters have many positives and some disadvantages too.

Just like Group III and PAO all have

and then of course you have BLENDS of them that are intended to be superior to a single type.

a 100% pao oil would have severe drawbacks, but one correctly blended and formulated is IMO one of the best oils available. (example M1 0w20 EP)

Which is why I dont get people dumping in MMO and such and diluting all that engineering and R&D

 

[fredfactory]

I've always been underwhelmed with Redline UOAs (google them yourself, I'm not going to ). So POEs at 2% mixed in provide what benefit? Reading the bitog material indicates they are polar, maybe for greater film strengh near elasthydrodynamic region?

 

[fredfactory]

Originally Posted By: Rand

What does redline give you for 50$ that M1 EP doesnt at 27$.. esp. in a honda fit or 90% of cars.

That is the conventional wisdom with high-POE oils like Redline, really in a class by itself. Way to go for jet engines for sure. Yet, knowing that adding 2% POE to a PAO/GrpIII mixture like Mobil recommends does say POE is very useful. Appreciate any insight.

 

[bobbydavro]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Additive solubility and seal compatibility.


Agreed.

However Mobil wanting to XOM components as much as possible (vertically integrated) also limits them somewhat from a technical point of view

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Additive solubility and seal compatibility.


Agreed.

However Mobil wanting to XOM components as much as possible (vertically integrated) also limits them somewhat from a technical point of view


True. Vertical integration certainly has its detractors.

 

[fredfactory]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Additive solubility and seal compatibility.


Agreed.

However Mobil wanting to XOM components as much as possible (vertically integrated) also limits them somewhat from a technical point of view


True. Vertical integration certainly has its detractors.


What could (should?) be used instead of this Esterex at 2%, functionally?
Like would Castrol do this too? just using a random example...

 

[JHZR2]

Additive solubility and seal compatibility. [/quote

+1. POE isn't necessarily the end all be all for auto engines.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: fredfactory
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Additive solubility and seal compatibility.


Agreed.

However Mobil wanting to XOM components as much as possible (vertically integrated) also limits them somewhat from a technical point of view


True. Vertical integration certainly has its detractors.


What could (should?) be used instead of this Esterex at 2%, functionally?
Like would Castrol do this too? just using a random example...


This is just a blending guideline, it isn't gospel. This is a "recommended" way of blending a grade using Mobil-sourced ingredients is basically how you need to look at it; the Mobil oil cookbook so to speak. Like a Hornady reloading handbook where they want you to use all Hornady parts.

If we were to look at BP's version of this, they'd be advocating a Group III base most likely as, AFAIK, they don't manufacture PAO. SOPUS would probably want to sell you their Group III too.

Some smaller blenders just use cookie-cutter recipes from the majors (like these ones) that they can "tweak". The additive packages can also be purchased in an "approved" format so that when mixed with an appropriate base oil blend, you get a product that meets a small suite of approvals right out of the gate.

Mobil has a rather diverse product portfolio from XOM Chemical. But there are things they don't manufacture. Certain grades they don't make....etc. They will do something else with what they DO have rather than source a component from outside. That's the point bobbydavro is making. A blender or manufacturer that lacks the same level of vertical integration will shop the market and subsequently have access to a broader range of products or subset of products. How much that matters in the end I'm not sure. I also don't know if what we see available on the XOM Chemical site reflects everything they produce or just what they sell to 3rd parties. It is an interesting topic.