Why not to buy american
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JHZR2
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But they made a good point about these vehicles being oftern lower priced (the caravan for example) to begin with.
I have a friend who needed a minivan. Only would choose a toyota or honda. Ended up paying a LOT of money, because they are in such short supply in the Phila. area that he had to pay MSRP to close the deal.
When my MB got smashed, I was looking for another car. I went to the acura dealer, because my GF has a lot of miles on her integra and its a pretty decent car. I asked about deals, discounts, etc., and was told that they dont do those things, they feel the cars are priced right from the start. I walked away laughing, and bought my $27k saab for just over $23k because of discounts and cash back. If Id have bought a TSX, Id be getting worse gas mileage, and had paid a lot more for the same length warranty, similar size car, etc. With the saab I paid less money, have a better looking car, and with the couple thousand that I saved, I can invest it very modestly, say in an I bond, and come out way better than the difference in residual down the line.
Paying retail is for suckers, period. It often helps to keep a residual value high, but theres more to think about than residual value, especially when youre keeping the car for a while.
JMH
I have a friend who needed a minivan. Only would choose a toyota or honda. Ended up paying a LOT of money, because they are in such short supply in the Phila. area that he had to pay MSRP to close the deal.
When my MB got smashed, I was looking for another car. I went to the acura dealer, because my GF has a lot of miles on her integra and its a pretty decent car. I asked about deals, discounts, etc., and was told that they dont do those things, they feel the cars are priced right from the start. I walked away laughing, and bought my $27k saab for just over $23k because of discounts and cash back. If Id have bought a TSX, Id be getting worse gas mileage, and had paid a lot more for the same length warranty, similar size car, etc. With the saab I paid less money, have a better looking car, and with the couple thousand that I saved, I can invest it very modestly, say in an I bond, and come out way better than the difference in residual down the line.
Paying retail is for suckers, period. It often helps to keep a residual value high, but theres more to think about than residual value, especially when youre keeping the car for a while.
JMH
Actually, sounds like a great reason to buy American. Having also enjoyed some quality time over the barrel to get a Honda Odyssey my next ride will probably be domestic and used (like my 5.5 year old former rental car Chevy that's been paid off for a couple years now).
The second paragraph in that article hits the nail on the head...if you drive a car until it's an orange pile of dust with a license plate attached your best bet would be to pick up one of these 'massively depreciated' cars with plenty of life left in them!
Most automotive literature is bent toward the 'trade in every 3 years' crowd...why wouldn't it be $$$? They're all in bed together.
The second paragraph in that article hits the nail on the head...if you drive a car until it's an orange pile of dust with a license plate attached your best bet would be to pick up one of these 'massively depreciated' cars with plenty of life left in them!
Most automotive literature is bent toward the 'trade in every 3 years' crowd...why wouldn't it be $$$? They're all in bed together.
at a place i used to work at. they had a 1980's toyota pickup truck little tiny truck.. it had 460,000 miles ! it was used for everything. the only things they had to replace were starter, alternators, and a few clutchs. clutchs mostly because of so many drivers driving it... all their chevy or ford trucks when the mileage got close to 100k they started to burn oil and or lose power.
Btw,
Regardless of any car you decide to buy...always make sure to hunt for the respective model forums. Spend enough time on the forums, and you'll find ways of getting S-plan, or Warehouse/Dealer plans for the vehicles.
These plans are usually no haggle prices, set at 4% BELOW factory invoice, with all incentives and rebates allowed.
Pretty much every manufacturer has these plans available to employees and their familes, it just takes some time and effort to obtain them for your own use.
Nicest thing about them is there isn't any haggling...its like buying a saturn. Its also illegal (at least in the Mazda/Ford S-plan) to tack on any additional fees...otherwise the dealer loses all their incentives for allowing the plan.
Quick example.
2004 Mazda 6s MTX with Sports Packages (black cloth)
MSRP: 23,115 USD
Invoice: 21,259 USD
S-plan: 20,288 USD
with rebates: 17,950 USD (I missed the extra 1k rebate that came a bit later)
http://www.grohol.com/mazda/Mazda2004.pdf
Btw with S-plan, the dealer is still making about a 2,000 USD profit on the car. If you can swing an E-plan (direct employee only), thats another 2,000 USD off the price, and the dealer still makes a 500 USD profit. (different dealer incentives for the different plans)
Dealers always like to make it sound like your hurting them or their familes by getting a car for invoice, or slightly below invoice...but its just not true. They never show all "their" incentives for selling vehicles.
There was a few month long volvo dealer incentive, that for every three volvo's sold, volvo gave the dealership ONE FOR FREE...that was completely pure profit. Of course you never hear about that stuff...they just cry about having to feed their families.
[ December 10, 2004, 09:31 AM: Message edited by: crossbow ]
Regardless of any car you decide to buy...always make sure to hunt for the respective model forums. Spend enough time on the forums, and you'll find ways of getting S-plan, or Warehouse/Dealer plans for the vehicles.
These plans are usually no haggle prices, set at 4% BELOW factory invoice, with all incentives and rebates allowed.
Pretty much every manufacturer has these plans available to employees and their familes, it just takes some time and effort to obtain them for your own use.
Nicest thing about them is there isn't any haggling...its like buying a saturn. Its also illegal (at least in the Mazda/Ford S-plan) to tack on any additional fees...otherwise the dealer loses all their incentives for allowing the plan.
Quick example.
2004 Mazda 6s MTX with Sports Packages (black cloth)
MSRP: 23,115 USD
Invoice: 21,259 USD
S-plan: 20,288 USD
with rebates: 17,950 USD (I missed the extra 1k rebate that came a bit later)
http://www.grohol.com/mazda/Mazda2004.pdf
Btw with S-plan, the dealer is still making about a 2,000 USD profit on the car. If you can swing an E-plan (direct employee only), thats another 2,000 USD off the price, and the dealer still makes a 500 USD profit. (different dealer incentives for the different plans)
Dealers always like to make it sound like your hurting them or their familes by getting a car for invoice, or slightly below invoice...but its just not true. They never show all "their" incentives for selling vehicles.
There was a few month long volvo dealer incentive, that for every three volvo's sold, volvo gave the dealership ONE FOR FREE...that was completely pure profit. Of course you never hear about that stuff...they just cry about having to feed their families.
[ December 10, 2004, 09:31 AM: Message edited by: crossbow ]
ill never buy american. i believe that if you take a engine assembled in japan and compare it to an engine assembled in america the *** engine will be better even if they are made from the exact same parts. i think this is because of asian work ethic and pride. i like the asian work ethic so much that i will never buy a car assembled in america, even if its a toyota or honda.
it has to be assembled in asia for me to consider buying it. its kind of embarassing for me to say this, being an american and all. however i believe what i have said to be true.
it has to be assembled in asia for me to consider buying it. its kind of embarassing for me to say this, being an american and all. however i believe what i have said to be true.
I don't disagree with you guys about residual value doesn't mean much, but sometimes it does reflect poor reliability or other factors affecting resale value. I know people who have driven Chrysler minivans for some time now, and many of them think it normal to have downtime to replace transmissions. One guy had three transmissions replaced on the same vehicle. The other thing about American iron, I don't like driving most of them. I prefer manual transmissions and a car that is relatively fuel efficent and fun to drive.
That's because the Toyota didn't have any power to lose! None to start with!
And that's the beauty of America...you can have any opinion you want - no proof, logic or data required - and you don't get persecuted for it.
That would be my illogical reason TO buy vehicles assembled in America, even if what you say were true (which I don't think it is).
crossbow -
I's like more info on how you go about getting the S-plan. I've spent time on various forums but never found out how to do this.
John
I's like more info on how you go about getting the S-plan. I've spent time on various forums but never found out how to do this.
John
John,
First off it has to be a ford related vehicle. Aka Volvo, Mazda, Jag, etc etc.
There are a variety of ways to get it. First way if just find somebody with an extra one. Some members get s-plan pin's for racing their cars. (Thats how I got mine)
http://www.mazdamotorsports.com
Othertimes salespersons will give you pin's to try and get a sale, or just to help out the forum. Basically you just need to find pretty much anyone working at a dealership, and you can get the pin's hella easily. Pretty much all the local guys in the 6club who've bought in the past year have gotten S-plans without issue.
As for american vs foreign...it doesn't matter that much anymore, most of the import car's aren't even imported anymore, they're built locally. And some of the asian built models still end up getting parts from the US. Its all being mismashed into one giant pile. Look at the 6 vs the 3. The mazda 6 is manufacturered in flat rock michigan...while the 3 is manufacturered in Japan...which of the 2 has more recalls, MRI's, and TSB's? The mazda 3.
First off it has to be a ford related vehicle. Aka Volvo, Mazda, Jag, etc etc.
There are a variety of ways to get it. First way if just find somebody with an extra one. Some members get s-plan pin's for racing their cars. (Thats how I got mine)
http://www.mazdamotorsports.com
Othertimes salespersons will give you pin's to try and get a sale, or just to help out the forum. Basically you just need to find pretty much anyone working at a dealership, and you can get the pin's hella easily. Pretty much all the local guys in the 6club who've bought in the past year have gotten S-plans without issue.
As for american vs foreign...it doesn't matter that much anymore, most of the import car's aren't even imported anymore, they're built locally. And some of the asian built models still end up getting parts from the US. Its all being mismashed into one giant pile. Look at the 6 vs the 3. The mazda 6 is manufacturered in flat rock michigan...while the 3 is manufacturered in Japan...which of the 2 has more recalls, MRI's, and TSB's? The mazda 3.
Has anyone read the consumer ratings on the Chevy Blazer? I'm surprised they still make this thing with all the other SUV's they market that are MUCH newer and more refined than this relic.
Why did I buy a Hyundai?
I had (still own) a '94 Mercury Sable, 3.0L, axod transmission. Purchased used with about 50K on it (in '98). I'm on my second transmission, and sometimes, it even shifts out of 2nd gear. Some of the windows don't work, electric seat adjusts don't work, and various other problems. I was spending about $500 every two months on repairs. Things would just break.
I decided that I needed a reliable car. I needed an inexpensive car, about $10,000 or less, and it had to have a warranty. Wife, two kids, morgage, credit cards, car payment, student loans, I don't have cash to waste on repairs.
American car companies don't make a car that fit those requirements. I ended up purchasing from a dealer a used Hyundai Accent. 22K miles, 1 yr old, with the full 6 year 60K mile bumper to bumper and 10 year 100,000 mile drivetrain warranty from the date of original purchase (5yr-60K/ 9yr-100K for me). So far, all I've needed the warranty for was to replace the tps, and a horn, and I have over 52K on it right now. It's the most trouble free car I've ever owned.
I'm not sure I would ever buy a Ford again after my Sable. I am however still waiting for an American company to make an inexpensive car that they are willing to stand behind (read: equilavent warranty). Until then, I'll buy from a company that believes in their product.
I had (still own) a '94 Mercury Sable, 3.0L, axod transmission. Purchased used with about 50K on it (in '98). I'm on my second transmission, and sometimes, it even shifts out of 2nd gear. Some of the windows don't work, electric seat adjusts don't work, and various other problems. I was spending about $500 every two months on repairs. Things would just break.
I decided that I needed a reliable car. I needed an inexpensive car, about $10,000 or less, and it had to have a warranty. Wife, two kids, morgage, credit cards, car payment, student loans, I don't have cash to waste on repairs.
American car companies don't make a car that fit those requirements. I ended up purchasing from a dealer a used Hyundai Accent. 22K miles, 1 yr old, with the full 6 year 60K mile bumper to bumper and 10 year 100,000 mile drivetrain warranty from the date of original purchase (5yr-60K/ 9yr-100K for me). So far, all I've needed the warranty for was to replace the tps, and a horn, and I have over 52K on it right now. It's the most trouble free car I've ever owned.
I'm not sure I would ever buy a Ford again after my Sable. I am however still waiting for an American company to make an inexpensive car that they are willing to stand behind (read: equilavent warranty). Until then, I'll buy from a company that believes in their product.
You will always have poor performers in a given group, no matter what corner of the world you are in. But I still believe, by far, that Japanese engineers are some of the worlds best. And as far as the BS spewed by the automotive rags, I take those words with a grain of salt. My own personal experience with domestic/foreign vehicles guides me in what to purchase, not the ramblings of any magazine. YMMV!quote:
Originally posted by novadude:
Having worked for a (non-automotive) division of Mitsubishi, I'll strongly disagree with you on this point. I am a Mechanical Engineer, and I worked closely with my Japanese counterparts on a development project, and I saw a LOT of mistakes coming out of those guys. Stupid things like inacessable bolt heads, etc., etc. I know the guys I worked with certainly were not "the best in the world".
As for me, I will always buy AMERICAN engineered vehicles, as I so not believe all the BS that is spewed by magazines about foriegn car superiority.
let me ditto to a degree...I've worked in factories (new product support) in Japan, Taiwan, Scocland, Mexico and the US.quote:
Originally posted by novadude:
Having worked for a (non-automotive) division of Mitsubishi, I'll strongly disagree with you on this point. I am a Mechanical Engineer, and I worked closely with my Japanese counterparts on a development project, and I saw a LOT of mistakes coming out of those guys. Stupid things like inacessable bolt heads, etc., etc. I know the guys I worked with certainly were not "the best in the world".
As for me, I will always buy AMERICAN engineered vehicles, as I so not believe all the BS that is spewed by magazines about foriegn car superiority.
It's the management that sets the standards. The enigneers can't do better than what management lives by themselves.
although i do believe that japanese cars do have an edge on quality on cheaper cars, more expensive american cars are good cars. america builts great full size trucks, especially heavy duty trucks, which the japanese don't.
the problem i have is styling. our american car designers can't build an economical car that looks good to save their life, until recently small american cars were downright ugly. the japanese have built some loosers too but not as many.
the problem i have is styling. our american car designers can't build an economical car that looks good to save their life, until recently small american cars were downright ugly. the japanese have built some loosers too but not as many.
novadude, when you talk of inaccessable parts are you refering to things like the inaccessable sparkplugs on a f150, or that one car, i think a trans am where you have to remove the exhaust manifold and some other stuff just to change an alternator?
what car was that again? i think patman had one.
believe me, inaccesable nuts bolts and engine parts are not *just* a asian thing. i would say the germans are worse at this than anyone, including americans.
granted that honda generally uses a stupid oil filter location (in the back, ugh) , but atleast they dont require you to tear half the top of the engine off just to get at the sparkplugs like ford does.
what car was that again? i think patman had one.
believe me, inaccesable nuts bolts and engine parts are not *just* a asian thing. i would say the germans are worse at this than anyone, including americans.
granted that honda generally uses a stupid oil filter location (in the back, ugh) , but atleast they dont require you to tear half the top of the engine off just to get at the sparkplugs like ford does.
I personally do think American Engineers are better than Japanese Engineers!
(Berkeley Engineering: GOOO BEARS!
)
But as it applies to cars domestic vs foreign, management does set the bar as low or as high as it does.
Corvette example: C-5 all model years have a very common "rear differential seal/s leaking "problem. R/R offending seal/s. Then when it leaks again R/R offending seal/s etc. Yet it was only so called truly "fix" during the last model year 2004. How hard an engineering feat does seal redesign need to be? More along the lines that a bean counter with an MBA was in charge!
[ December 10, 2004, 02:30 PM: Message edited by: ruking77 ]
But as it applies to cars domestic vs foreign, management does set the bar as low or as high as it does.
Corvette example: C-5 all model years have a very common "rear differential seal/s leaking "problem. R/R offending seal/s. Then when it leaks again R/R offending seal/s etc. Yet it was only so called truly "fix" during the last model year 2004. How hard an engineering feat does seal redesign need to be? More along the lines that a bean counter with an MBA was in charge!
[ December 10, 2004, 02:30 PM: Message edited by: ruking77 ]
..."granted that honda generally uses a stupid oil filter location (in the back, ugh) , but atleast they dont require you to tear half the top of the engine off just to get at the sparkplugs like ford does."...
I would agree that Honda uses a pretty stupid oil filter location. But as soon as you jack it up you do have instant access to both the oil filter, oil plug and one coolant plug drain, etc . So if you contrast that with my VW Jetta TDI, you have to remove app 10 nuts (7 riv nuts) translation:royal PITA and Judas Priest help you if you strip out a riv nut! AND the pseudo (plastic) prophalatic skid plate needs to be removed : just to access the oil drain plug!
I would agree that Honda uses a pretty stupid oil filter location. But as soon as you jack it up you do have instant access to both the oil filter, oil plug and one coolant plug drain, etc . So if you contrast that with my VW Jetta TDI, you have to remove app 10 nuts (7 riv nuts) translation:royal PITA and Judas Priest help you if you strip out a riv nut! AND the pseudo (plastic) prophalatic skid plate needs to be removed : just to access the oil drain plug!
In the mid 1980s I was working on a vehicle development program where we had subcantracted to a German company for a major subsystem.
During a status review, the German engineer said that they were behind schedule because because of an early design error that was causing them to have to do some redesign.
Our program manager said "Hans, I didn't think you German engineers made mistakes like we do."
Hans though a few seconds, then said "Ve don't make mistakes like you do, our mistakes are much more precise than yours."
During a status review, the German engineer said that they were behind schedule because because of an early design error that was causing them to have to do some redesign.
Our program manager said "Hans, I didn't think you German engineers made mistakes like we do."
Hans though a few seconds, then said "Ve don't make mistakes like you do, our mistakes are much more precise than yours."
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