Why do Europeans use heavier oils than Americans

[FCD]

i didn't expect such a big conversation to kick off lol regarding the original post the guy which has the 351w Mustang beats on it pretty hard and revs it pretty high before changing gear, personally i use 20w50 in my Ford Capri because it's what these engine run from new which i believe is because the camshaft is gear driven and the crank journals are 2.5 inches in diameter ( larger than a 350 sbc ) which if i'm correct means that the bearing speed is very high?, even though i live in southern Spain my cooling system is in great shape and it stays perfectly cool even in 40c ( 100F ) weather, once i tried 10w40 and i couldn't stand the valvetrain noise, once i even ran 25w60 in it for summer a few years ago and it sounded even better with that but i can't get it locally . I think like in OZ here people have a tendency to use heavier oils because of the heat

 

[Jetronic]

Wasn't that engine developed from a diesel diesel engine? that could explain the bigger bearings as the diesel engine would have a rather low RPM limit

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: Pontual
Because with 15w40 you wont have a drop of consumption in 5k miles. Now with the more expensive 0w20, you will add a few quarts to top iht up, between ocis?


Total myth. Sometimes consumption goes down with lighter oil because the oil control ring is more effective. I once had a 260,000 mile Chrysler 383 that burned a quart of 10w30 every 1200 miles. I tried 20w50 thinking consumption would go down, but instead it shot up to about a quart every 600 miles and fouled plugs like crazy. Back to 10w30, back to 1200 miles (and a rebuilt 440 installed, consumption down to a quart per OCI... ;-p )

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Jetronic
Wasn't that engine developed from a diesel diesel engine? that could explain the bigger bearings as the diesel engine would have a rather low RPM limit


If he's talking about the 351 Windsor, no, it just has large (3") mains.

 

[FCD]

The Ford Essex 3.0L V6 engine as the one in my Capri was indeed designed to be a diesel , that's why it has the massive crank journals, gear driven cam, heron combustion chambers ( flat cylinder heads with the combustion chambers in the piston ) it weighs around 400lbs fully assembled! despite the weight when well treated these engines are indestructible

 

[TFB1]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
Wasn't that engine developed from a diesel diesel engine? that could explain the bigger bearings as the diesel engine would have a rather low RPM limit


If he's talking about the 351 Windsor, no, it just has large (3") mains.
Correct, basically are a stretched 302 block with those huge mains... I've read the original intention for Windsor was mostly as a truck engine., BUT that was never mentioned in it's early days... I remember it's introduction well...

The Cleveland was designed after Windsor as a Hi-Po engine, has 2¾" main bearings... If it had not been for the competition between the Windsor and Cleveland plants, the Cleveland version would likely have more closely resembled a BOSS 302 in architecture...

Sort of like the differences in the Romeo & Windsor mod motors that really makes no sense... Build one or the other...

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: FordCapriDriver
The Ford Essex 3.0L V6 engine as the one in my Capri was indeed designed to be a diesel , that's why it has the massive crank journals, gear driven cam, heron combustion chambers ( flat cylinder heads with the combustion chambers in the piston ) it weighs around 400lbs fully assembled! despite the weight when well treated these engines are indestructible


The interesting part about this is the fact that there were two very different Essex V6's, the Canadian one, built at the Essex plant in Windsor Ontario, which was an aluminum headed 90 degree V6, and the UK one, which was as you described, a 60 degree V6 whose design is much older and was originally, like many VW engines, designed to have a block that would work for both gas and diesel applications.

 

[FCD]

yes i'm aware of that the British Essex was originally designed in 1965 and was produced until 2000 in South Africa

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: TFB1
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
Wasn't that engine developed from a diesel diesel engine? that could explain the bigger bearings as the diesel engine would have a rather low RPM limit


If he's talking about the 351 Windsor, no, it just has large (3") mains.
Correct, basically are a stretched 302 block with those huge mains... I've read the original intention for Windsor was mostly as a truck engine., BUT that was never mentioned in it's early days... I remember it's introduction well...

The Cleveland was designed after Windsor as a Hi-Po engine, has 2¾" main bearings... If it had not been for the competition between the Windsor and Cleveland plants, the Cleveland version would likely have more closely resembled a BOSS 302 in architecture...

Sort of like the differences in the Romeo & Windsor mod motors that really makes no sense... Build one or the other...



Yeah, the BOSS 302 was basically a Windsor block with Cleveland heads. I think the M engines and the dark days of smog controls really sealed the fate of the Cleveland engines. The Windsor engines were much more common, particularly the 302, and was likely why they persisted and showed up in applications like the Explorer even into the 2000's.

I never understood the huge mains on the 351W, as they obviously weren't necessary for durability and were a hindrance to high RPM operation, which ran counter to building performance versions of it. I believe there were even crank bearing reducers available for it so that you could run a turned down crank with Cleveland or 302 diameter mains.

 

[RoadRaceJosh]

Originally Posted By: FordCapriDriver
The Ford Essex 3.0L V6 engine as the one in my Capri was indeed designed to be a diesel , that's why it has the massive crank journals, gear driven cam, heron combustion chambers ( flat cylinder heads with the combustion chambers in the piston ) it weighs around 400lbs fully assembled! despite the weight when well treated these engines are indestructible


Plenty of that old English junk had Heron heads as did a few others. The Ford MEL engine was the last I'm aware of by a US manufacturer and that was killed off in 1968. Obsolete is all the Essex V6 is.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: FordCapriDriver
yes i'm aware of that the British Essex was originally designed in 1965 and was produced until 2000 in South Africa


Wasn't implying that you weren't, I just thought it was neat that there were two families of Ford engine with the same name with vastly different architectures. Very unlike the other Ford engine families like the Windsor or Cleveland which we are also discussing in parallel here

 

[FCD]

Joshua what is the point of your reply may i ask??

 

[RoadRaceJosh]

Originally Posted By: FordCapriDriver
...personally i use 20w50 in my Ford Capri because it's what these engine run from new which i believe is because the camshaft is gear driven and the crank journals are 2.5 inches in diameter ( larger than a 350 sbc ) which if i'm correct means that the bearing speed is very high?


Large journal Chevy small block mains are 2.45". Not a big bearing speed difference from 2.50". Oldsmobile made plenty of 3" main bearings and specified SAE30 oil. Chrysler had 100s of thousands of 2.75" main bearing journals in both RB and G/RG engines. Again SAE 30 for most conditions. The heavy duty Dodge big block 413-3 used timing gears. Studebaker V8s used gears. Chevrolet's 1962+ I6 used timing gears. The Cummins 5.9 has huge bearings, gear driven cam and injector pump, lube is 15w40. Long story short, your reasoning appears to be flawed.

Originally Posted By: FordCapriDriver
.. once i tried 10w40 and i couldn't stand the valvetrain noise, once i even ran 25w60 in it for summer a few years ago and it sounded even better with that but i can't get it locally . I think like in OZ here people have a tendency to use heavier oils because of the heat


A valve clearance adjustment was probably in order. This has me considering how many different vehicles I've owned which needed periodic valve adjustments.

 

[OVERKILL]

The Ford I6 engines like the 300 also used a gear drive for the camshaft.

 

[FCD]

i will be adjusting the tappets soon , and since Ford spec'd 20w50 for it from new that's what i will use! i still do wonder why they spec'd such a viscous oil even on new engines , any thoughts?

 

[BrocLuno]

If the basic design was really 1965, that is part of the rational. Not afraid of "big" oils back then

 

[fdcg27]

I've never understood why there were distinct 351W, C and M engines.
What was the point?
Was there some disagreement between various groups of engineers?
Is there any real advantage to the huge mains on the 351W?
I have a vehicle with the 351W and it has plenty of power as well as decent fuel efficiency for what it is, but that has nothing to do with the bottom end.

 

[Shannow]

When the Clevo was introduced into Oz, it seriously brough greater performance to the GTHO falcon (140+MPH 4 door sedan in the early 70s) that the Windsor of the day couldn't do.

As to the main journals, there was a discussion the other day on crank/block stiffness, and a poster brought to the thread an example where Buick couldn't get the durability from their engine due to a "floppy" block, so beefed the crankshaft to counter the block flex...dunno, but it's a possibility.

 

[CT8]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Aside from CAFE, climate has always been a consideration in North America. Incidentally, even before CAFE, General Motors was very much against 10w-40 grades, with 10w30 being the preferred option, even over thirty years ago. It's easy to blame CAFE, and the role is significant, but North America was trending to thinner oils a long time ago.
The reason G.M.moved from 10W-40 oils was because G.M. a huge problem with the V.I.I. causing the piston rings to stick in the groves which would cause extreme oil consumption. G.M. went to a 10w30 and for severe high temp use recommend a 15w40.

 

[TFB1]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
I've never understood why there were distinct 351W, C and M engines.
What was the point?
Was there some disagreement between various groups of engineers?
Is there any real advantage to the huge mains on the 351W?
I have a vehicle with the 351W and it has plenty of power as well as decent fuel efficiency for what it is, but that has nothing to do with the bottom end.

The Windsor is nothing more than a stretched 302... Orignally somewhat limited in power capability, but with the advent of the 5.0 Mustang in the early '80s both the 302 & 351W became darlings of the aftermarket industry... Since then there have been so many Hi-Po heads, intakes etc even the Chevy guys were crying "you Ford guys are getting all the good stuff(at least prior to the LS engines)...

Originally the Cleveland was the performance version, heads far out flowed anything for Windsor, but that only lasted from 1970 thru '73... The last year '74 models were smogged to death...

In '75 the 351 Modified debuted as cheaper alternative to the Cleveland... What it was is the std 351 bore and stroke in the taller deck 400 engine(used in full size since '71 and trucks)... Both also used a 429/460 bell housing pattern so small block(302, 351W&C etc) transmissions can't be used with Modified...